Creating an ‘Un-leavable’ Trade Team with Shelley Johnson

Andy
Well, today on The Tradie Show, we have Shelley Johnson from Boldside  joining us to spill the Secrets on Creating Unleavable Teams in the Trade Industry. 

Ange
Shelley will share why some companies thrive while others struggle, what employees really want and how to tackle the skills shortage plaguing us here in Australia. 

Andy
Plus she’ll give us some tips on attracting and retaining staff when other businesses are offering big money.

Ange
Stay tuned, you won’t want to miss this one.  

Andy
You’re listening to The Tradie Show. This is the podcast for trade business and contracting bosses like you who wanna lead with confidence, make more profit, and create a better lifestyle. 

Ange
We’re your hosts, Andy and Angela Smith, husband & wife, team, and co-founders of Lifestyle Tradie. Are you ready to have some fun? 

Andy
Hell yeah. 

If you are an ambitious plumber, electrician, landscaper, painter, builder, or any other trade who wants a blueprint to scale your business, then listen up. We’ve opened the doors for the final time this year to our free live event, Lifestyle Tradie on Tour. We’re touring Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane in September. So if you’re feeling stuck in the daily grind of your trade business, And you’re struggling with long hours on the tools, putting out fires all day, spending your weekends hunched over your computer, dealing with admin work, cashflow headaches, trying to work out why the money’s going out faster than it’s coming in and that never ending stress, then this event is for you. Join us for our live in person event where you learn how to get off the tools, boost your profit, win more of the jobs you want, nail your marketing, build a dream team, and streamline your business with proven systems that work. Tickets are free, but they’re being snapped up fast, so register now at lifestyletradie.com.au.  

Ange
So today’s guest is Shelley Johnson, HR consultant and the force behind Boldside, a company who specializes in helping trade and construction businesses build leaders people want to follow and create cultures, employees never want to leave. With years of experience in the trade and construction industry, she’s an expert in transforming workplaces into unleavable teams.

Andy
Yeah, we’ve been really lucky to have Shelly speak at a few of our Lifestyle Tradie Live Events without diamond members, and what a treat that was. Our members found her session so incredibly useful and practical to implement their own businesses, especially because staffing really is a massive issue right now. And with the skills shorties as well, it’s great to have someone like Shelley on board. I’d like everyone to welcome to the show, Shelley. 

Shelley
Thank you team. So good to be hanging out with you. 

Ange
Amazing. We absolutely loved your conversation at our Lifestyle Tradie event, all around creating unleavable teams. I’m going to get straight into it, Shelley. Can you explain what you mean by unleavable teams and why it’s crucial for businesses today? 

Shelley
Yeah. And when we say unleavable, I just want to put a little asterisk in there because we want to create teams that are unleavable for your high performers. So when we think about this idea, especially in trade and construction, finding and keeping good talent is probably one of the single biggest challenges I see with businesses we work with all over Australia. So what I would be saying to you In this kind of space of creating an unleavable team is I want you to have this team culture where you attract the best talent in the market and you keep them so that your business becomes this business where it feels unleavable. It’s like, why would I leave? There is nothing better out there than this particular workplace that I’m in. So that’s what we do with businesses, we try to create that vibe, but yeah, the asterisk Ange really matters because that’s Sometimes you have people on your team and you think, you know what, I’d be happy if they left tomorrow. 

Ange
Totally. 

Shelley
That’s a bit cheeky. But then we want to create a team where you’re like, my people are like, you get up in the morning, you feel excited about the people that you get to work with.

Andy
Yeah. And it’s so important in the trade industry. And I know a lot of people, they want that culture, but they struggle to get to that. And it ends up being all around how much you pay. Now what I’m seeing is some of the best businesses out there, it’s not about how much they pay. Now, I will say that most people that hang on to staff long term with good staff, they pay a really good amount, but they’re not always the highest amount, but they have so many other things that happen in business that makes such a big difference as well. Um, why do some companies have candidates calling them and actually wanting to work with them? Why are other businesses left hiring from slim pickings?

Shelley
Yeah. So the companies that get people to call them and say, I’ve heard about you. It’s the same as thinking about your business marketing. When we’re doing a good job of our business marketing, when we’re doing a good job of our service delivery, we get referrals. There’s word of mouth. We have people coming to us instead of us going and chasing. It’s the same with your employees and the people you’re attracting in terms of candidates. If you’ve done a good job of marketing your employer brand, you’ll get people doing that where they call up and they’re like, I’ve actually heard about you guys. Like I’ve heard the stuff you’re doing and I want to be part of that. So what I want you to do is think about it as, okay, what are the offers? What are the things I’m offering my employees? Are they attractive enough to get great talent in? The other day, someone said to me, like, you know what? Like I’m paying super and I’m paying that. I’m like, um, What do you mean? Super is a legal entitlement. So that’s not a thing, like stop it. But like what I mean is like the offer to your employees has to be attractive enough to get the right person in. So here’s what I want you to do if you’re struggling right now. I want you to think about your highest performing team member you’ve ever had. What are the things that help them to stay? So like ask yourself that question. What things help my high performance stay? So do a little audit of what attracted them to the business and what kept them. Then what you do, just like you think about your ideal client. Who is my ideal client? Who is my ideal employee? And then you create messaging when you do your job ads around that person. So maybe they want flexibility. Maybe they want To be able to go to their school assemblies for their kids and have that all wrapped into their employment, find ways to communicate that to attract that type of ideal person in. That’s what I want you to start thinking about. 

Andy
Yeah. And I think everything’s changed hasn’t it? Let’s just bring it up. It’s changed since COVID.  I, I honestly think, and it was always starting to change. But now everyone wants more of a lifestyle and a lot of the young ones coming through. It’s not even, I mean, they do want the money, don’t  you worry, but they want a lifestyle as well. And that’s the challenge we’re seeing. So how can you keep these long term employees when it’s not just about the money, what else are you doing as a company? And it’s really interesting you saying that I will just quickly go back to Dr. Drip, like on average, our team was staying with us for six years. So we were doing something right now. We weren’t the highest payers in the market, but we had a great team culture and they’re always learning and we had great structure in the business. So nothing went wrong unless someone didn’t follow the flow of a job. The thing that happens with that is there’s not as much stress in the business. I see some business owners and they’re so stressed, they’re freaking out. And what they’re actually doing is they’re affecting not only potentially your partner, your own family, but, um, they’re making a real big difference on all of their staff and they’re making all their staff feel anxious and worried and they don’t want to make mistakes and they’re just really blowing up at, you know, some small things. And if you’re like that as a business owner, that’s not really a good leader either. And definitely you’ve seen businesses like this before, haven’t you Shelley? 

Shelley
A hundred percent. And it goes to Gallup did this research, uh, workplace and management agency around the number one reason people leave teams. And everyone’s heard this is the manager. Yeah. So if you think about it, well, what can I control? I can’t necessarily control the award rates. I can’t necessarily control, we definitely can’t control the award rates. No,  we can’t control what the economy is doing. We can’t control macro economics and how that’s influencing skills, but what we can control is our own leadership. And that has a disproportionate impact on your employee retention and your ability to attract people in. So if you go out and you look at your leaders in the business, your managers, your supervisors and yourself, it’s huge self-reflection. Are you a leader? People would want to follow.

Andy
Yeah. That’s right.

Shelley
That is a tough question to answer. Like, because often we don’t get that feedback. So if I look at Dr. Drip and I think about you, Andy, and, and you Ange, I would say if I was to come in back then and do an audit of your culture, one of the things I would probably notice first is the quality of the leadership.

Andy
Yep, great. 

Shelley
And that’s something that can’t be replicated. It is hard to replicate leadership and culture because you, as an individual, create that individual culture. So if you can invest in your leadership and your managers, your supervisor, your fallen, whoever you have and go, you know what? We’re going to be known for this. And we’re going to be known for developing our people, developing our talent. That is your competitive edge when it comes to attracting and keeping great people. 

Ange
So one of the issues that we’re having now in lots of conversations is this entitlement mentality. So there’s, you know, employees don’t necessarily want to work hard and so therefore there’s this huge issue in the industry right now. Well, so is the conversation anyway. Shelley, what’s your take on this and how can business owners address these kinds of attitudes that are showing up? 

Shelley
I was smiling because this question comes up so much about entitlement and it’s very relevant and timely. And I know we spoke with your beautiful Diamond members at the Brisbane Lifestyle Tradie event because this question came up from the group of like, how do you deal with entitlement?

Ange
Yes. 

Shelley
And the way I define entitlement for anyone who wasn’t there, I’ll just share with you my really weird definition. So entitlement is the gap between what you want and what you’re willing to work for. And I think about if I want to have abs, I know my body could create them, but at the moment I’m unwilling to do the amount of sit ups it would take to get them. So this is where entitlement seeps in because I’m like, well, I want them and my body could create them. I don’t want to work for it, but I’m entitled to, and I deserve abs. Well, no, that’s an absolutely ridiculous concept. But we do this all the time at work. We’ve all had instances where we’ve shown up with an entitlement attitude. And I think the thing that we need to do is we need to help employees see the gap between what they want and what they’re willing to work for. So a common example, Ange, would be where someone is coming to you within their probationary period, you’ve just hired them. And they’re like, Hey, I want a 15 percent pay rise. And you’re like, mate, you haven’t even completed your probationary period. And you’re not doing the fullness of the role yet. Like chill. That shows the gap between what they want and what they’ve worked for. So we need to help them close that gap. And the way we do that is that we show the difference between, okay, I hear what you want. You want a 15 percent pay rise. Let me show you the value you would need to add to the business to get there. So that means if you want to achieve that over the next 18 months, here’s what we need to do together to get you there. I’m happy to work with you on it. But I need to be clear and upfront with you that right now, you’re not meeting the requirements of the role that would warrant that type of pay increase.

Ange
It’s an interesting conversation because I do feel that a lot of trade business owners don’t know how to articulate what that even means, like the expectation they have on their team. So hence that conversation doesn’t happen. So that’s definitely something that needs to get brought in. 

Andy
And the other thing is most people don’t have any KPIs around their staff,  so there’s nothing you can sit down and lay out. Like at Dr. Drip, we could sit down and go, well, let’s look at GPs. Let’s look at how much money you’re bringing in. Let’s look at when you turned up late. And we have this whole list of everything to do with KPIs that we could go through with them. And then we compare them with other guys in the company and go, well, you want to be paid like this guy? Cause you’ve heard, and maybe it’s I’ve heard through the grapevine, this guy’s getting this much because as much as you have in the contracts, you can’t talk to anyone else. It always comes out and I will, you’re going to be hitting those figures to be getting that. So you need something where most business owners don’t have any of those figures. They just deep down go, he’s not worth it. But you know what? If I don’t pay him, how am I going to find someone else? Then they freak out and then they give him a pay rise when he doesn’t deserve it. And guess what? Yeah. He’s back again in another two or three months. 

Shelley
Yeah. And it reinforces that pattern of behavior for us as a business owner, but also for the employee that, you know what, if you want to pay an increase, you need to demonstrate the value you’re going to add and the value you have added. Now, I think I like that point around how we set clear kinds of KPIs and expectations. When we think about increasing pay, I like to think about two stages. What are the baseline expectations that you need to hit to just do the fundamentals of your role versus the stretch goals? Yeah. And if you achieve these stretch goals consistently over time, and the emphasis is consistently over time, because people can achieve peak performance in short sprints, I want, if you think about it, okay, well, what would be a reasonable timeline for someone to achieve that stretch goal? I’d say six months or more at a minimum. Because what we say is like, if you have a conversation with someone, you go, look, you could get to here. They might be able to hold that level of performance for like three weeks or six weeks, but it’s a sustained period of time and we can communicate to our staff upfront, Hey, baseline expectations of just the fundamentals, you must do this versus the stretch goals are these things. And if you want to be considered for a pay rise, like I am more than happy to have that conversation, but I need to see you hitting these things consistently over a six plus months period. 

Andy
Yeah, a hundred percent. And you know, there’s no doubt about it. Everyone wants more for less. And it’s a way of being a good leader and making sure you can have those hard discussions to get the most out of these guys. So how do some trade business owners build a real strong company culture that not only attracts but also retains the best talent? What are they doing that’s really putting them a step above other businesses?

Shelley
Well, I think the first thing is that they need to define their culture. So a lot of us think that we have, if we’ve created a couple of company values, we’re like, yep, we got a culture. Yeah. No, you got some words on the wall or you printed it off,  but do you have a culture? Like I always come back to the big four banks all had integrity in their value statement on the wall at every, every location, but it didn’t change the behavior that we saw in the Royal commission.

Andy
That’s exactly right. 

Shelley
So organizations, whether you’re big or small, this stuff applies. So I want you to think about, okay, number one, define our culture. So let’s say the way we do it with companies we work with, we define the must have and the can’t have behaviors. So forget values and all that stuff for a sec. What are the behaviors we must have on this team? And what are the behaviors we can’t have that we won’t tolerate? So things like ego, defensiveness  to feedback, like bare minimum mindsets, that stuff is on the can’t have side. They must have behaviors, things like humility, Coachability, like can you be coached, whatever those things are for you, define them. And the key is to get your team to help you define them. Don’t do it in isolation. If you can get everyone on your team to shape this out, you’ll get more buy in. Then what we need to do, once you’ve defined those must haves, you need to look at what is the gap between what we’re doing now versus what we’re aspiring to. If you can call out that gap, then you go, cool, what are we going to change? And everyone needs to have an action plan of how am I going to represent this? It’s not just the business owner’s job to lead culture. Everyone has a part to play, but if you engage your team in that process, you’ll get better buy in. So start by defining it, then working out the gap between what you are aspiring to versus what’s actually happening. And then from there, I want you to create, like in your, Toolbox meetings in your regular kind of one on one check-ins to bring this up going, Hey, I saw Jack do this on site the other day. He really went the extra mile, exceeding expectations. Just want to say thanks. You’re reinforcing the behavior that you’re saying is part of your culture. 

Ange
I think what you just said, one key point that was really important was ensuring that you include your team in discovering what these behaviors are. So you know, it’s one thing for us as the business owner to make the decisions and define what that we want and what are those non negotiables, but if you’ve got a team that have been around for some time, I think that point of including them in that conversation because they’ll be very quick to define what they want as those team members, especially if they’re working with them, you know, out on site, for instance. So, um, definitely something that needs to be mentioned. So Shelley, the skills shortage is hugely plaguing the trades industry here in Australia. What strategies can businesses implement to get around this issue and ensure they have a skilled workforce? 

Shelley
Yeah. So I think there’s two things to this Ange. It’s the short term issue and the long game. So the long game is we need to be thinking far enough ahead. Like I want you, if you own a business to be thinking, how do I become a business that develops talent? Like let’s just use a sporting analogy for sex. So think about one team that I would think about is like Penrith Panthers. If you’re an NRL fan.

Ange
Is that who you go for, Shelly?

Shelley
I’m in Newcastle Knights gal. 

Ange
Oh, just checking. 

Andy
Geez, that’s hard work at the moment. 

Shelley
Yeah. Right. 

Andy
Yeah. But I know what you’re saying with Penrith. There’s one, what are they? One, the GF three years in a row or about to probably win it this year, three years in a row.

Ange
Exactly. 

Shelley
But years and years and years of talent development in the lead up, right? So like 10 years plus of long term, long game thinking talent development. Yes. And like, we’re thinking about kids who are in high school. We’re thinking about how to develop them through this system? And they have a system for talent development, not just for now, but for years into the future. And I think for us as business owners, we need to think not just about the immediate issue. And I know it’s hard because when you bloody just try to fill a job that you’ve got active right now. You’re not thinking about five years’ time, but we need to be able to concurrently, like we need to do both at the same time. And it’s a real challenge. I’m not saying it’s easy. 

Andy
So what you’re actually saying is someone like the Panthers, they develop their juniors. The juniors come through because they’ve always been a Penrith Junior. There’s a lot of loyalty around that. You still can’t stop some of the big guys going, ’cause most people will stay at the club for less money because of the loyalty. But then you will get some people that Penrith don’t want. So they’ll let go. But there’s some people that will go for the money. But it’s only a small percentage. People that do leave for the big money, those clubs aren’t developing their juniors. They’re just picking off guys for the big money and they never ever have the same culture because they’re just picking all these people from all different walks of life, different clubs, and they never had the right back bone or the right foundations of that club coming through and they never seem to succeed. So same in a trade business, if you are just picking off the best guys, paying the best dollars, we all know that’s not a great strategy, and the majority of those guys that come across have terrible ethics around running a business and they don’t actually work out for the long term. Where if you grow these guys and bring them up from apprentices and look after them, and hopefully they stay loyal, then you’ve got a really good culture and that’s where you get these guys staying for a long time. 

Shelley
Andy, you’re so bang on that because I just think about why do people stay with a pen rest? They want to be part of a winning team. Yes. And I will forego salary to be part of a winning team because if I’m a high performer, one of my drivers is to be part of a high performing culture. And so if you think about your business and you go, well, I’m going to build a high performing culture, I’m going to be clear that, Hey, what we offer here is we’re a winning team. We care about you as a person, like as an individual, I’m going to develop you. I’m going to grow you. And what you get in return is you’re going to get the best experience of your career here. That is something people want to be part of and they will forego money for that. But if you’re constantly in what we call the pay trap, where all we have to barter with is money, that tells me as someone coming into the business, you have a culture problem or a leadership problem, and now all they have to use to stay is, well, just pay me more.

Ange
I think one of those really important sentences is ensuring that you’re bringing back the communication with your team, that you are there for development. So like every six months. Sitting down with your team and giving them a sheet so they self analyze even down to how they use particular equipment in their trade. As an example, how well do you understand the jetter or whatever it is so that they can literally grade themselves, you know, one being not so fabulous, 10 being amazing and or communication skills, sales tactics, all that kind of stuff so that you can then take that away and buddy them up with someone who’s doing that exceptionally well so that they understand growth. You know, the business is behind them to ensure they’re constantly being better because that’s the people we want to hang around inside our team. And what’s interesting with trade is, as I’m sure you understand, every tradie that is an apprentice, they come to you as a business saying, my intention is to own my own business. That’s what they say. But we all know without a shadow of a doubt. But life happens and how do you know that once they get inside your business and when you look after them well and the culture is amazing, that they go, why would I ever leave this place? I’m on a good weekend. They listen to me. I’m involved in decisions. I actually get paid well. I love the culture. I love the people. So I’m not going to start my own business. I’m just going to stay here forever. And that would be amazing. And that is what actually happened with Dr. Drip. 

Shelley
Yeah, it’s so nice when you have those moments where you think this person originally, they wanted to do this, but whatever it is that I’ve done here has created an environment where they want to stay. And that’s when you’ve known, you know, you’ve done your job well. So I think like that tenure of like six years, people sticking around for that tells you, you’re doing something that other people aren’t doing. And I think Ange, you bang on when you say just sitting down regularly and talking about their growth and development, that is one of the cheapest. And most effective ways to engage people in the work that you’re doing, and you are going to be miles ahead of a lot of organizations who just don’t do that. They don’t invest in their people in that way. 

Andy
But people are scared to do it because they feel like when they have those conversations, especially if you call it a review, they feel like every time it’s a review, the employee is expecting a pay rise, but don’t call it a review then just sit down and have a general chat with them and just say, this is what I’m happy with. Where are you at? What can I do? But there’s no doubt about it. I think one of my best traits over all the years of business is I get a sense, I get a sense when things aren’t right. And, sometimes I’m wrong. Sometimes I get a sense with some of my staff and I go, hang on, they’re just not where they’re normally at. And I can see it from a mile away, but when you sit down and have a chat, maybe you’re right, maybe you’re wrong. But if you just ignore it and then ignore it and ignore it. Then all of a sudden it becomes such a big issue. Hit it hard and fast early, if you feel something’s not right, talk to them, explain it, make them understand a business point of view as well. That’s one thing I used to do really well. I go, I understand as an employee, this is what you’re thinking. So let’s talk about it as a business owner, how I’m thinking. I’m not saying you’re a hundred percent wrong. I’m not saying I’m a hundred percent right. But what I am saying is we’re, you know, we’re running a business here. And if we don’t have a successful business, then no one has a job. So we’ve got to think about it in that way. 

Shelley
Definitely. It’s really those conversations. I mean, it’s the combination of having authentic, real, honest conversations about where you’re at. That stuff is so powerful. So a hundred percent agree.

Ange
So Shelley, you emphasize building leaders people want to follow. What specific qualities do you think are essential for leaders in the trade industry to cultivate this unleavable team? 

Shelley
Oh, there are a couple. I’ll talk to maybe one or two of them. The first one I would say is like, And it might sound a little bit lame. You might hear this and you’re like, roll your eyes, but bear with me. I think the thing that leaders need to build, especially in trade, is courage. So like courageous conversations. How do I have them? And one thing I see for tradies for people in construction is they do this pendulum swing. So they either sugar coat and they don’t have the conversation at all with their employees. Or if they do that for long enough, they get really resentful, really annoyed, really pissed off. And then they go to full blown, brutal honesty, blow ups, and extremes. And that for an employee is really hard to deal with because what you get, it feels really erratic. It feels really inconsistent. So for me, I’d be saying to you, if you’re listening, you feel like you might struggle with how do I have difficult conversations? The goal is courage and kindness. So how do I deliver difficult messages of kindness? Now, that doesn’t mean you water it down. That doesn’t mean it has to be all soft and flowery, like how HR people like myself, but I want you to be clear. And so I would be saying to people, when you see issues, you need to address them. And, and this is really important. What I might do, we’ve got a tough conversation, cheat sheet. We can give to your listeners. We can put it in the show notes. 

Andy
Yes, sounds great. 

Shelley
I want you to have tools to, how do I have difficult conversations? In a way that sets someone up to receive it, not move from like sugar coating to brutal honesty, like we need to be able to have these conversations in kindness in the early stages before we get all resentful and, and have some of those dynamics. How does that resonate with you though? Because you see these, you’ve worked with trades way more than me. 

Andy
You’re a hundred percent right. So most people come to me and go, Oh my God, one of my guys has come. He wants a pay rise. And I go, okay, so what’s the situation? He goes, well, he wants this. It’s pretty top dollar. I go, well, what’s he like? Oh, he’s an amazing plumber. Let’s say it’s a plumber or electrician or whatever. He goes, always amazing and great. I don’t want to lose him. I’m like, okay, so what’s your problem? The problem is he does this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, all this stuff wrong. And I went, okay, so what does he say about that? And he goes, well, what do you mean? I said, well, when you’ve talked to him about these issues, what did he say? And he goes, oh, well, I haven’t really said anything yet. And I’m like,  well, you can’t do that. 

Ange
We don’t have a conversation. 

Andy
So they let it go on for, you know, 12 months, six months, whatever it is. But then there’s nowhere to come back from that. You can’t then just drop it. And this is what some of them do. They say to the employee, I want to give you a pay raise, but you’re doing all this stuff wrong pretty much. And that is a little lump in his lap. And the, the, the employee goes, well, you never told me that before. And it becomes like a bit of a blow up and it ends badly. And, and a lot of the, um, business owners go, yeah, but you know, it’s my job to tell the truth. I said, yeah, but not like that. You’ve had 12 months, all those little things you see, you need to bring up in a really fun and happy way at the start and just point it out and say, Hey mate, you need to be better here. Hey mate, you need to be better there. And when you’re doing that and as they become better, then you are more likely to give them a pay rise. And I did try and give my guys a pay rise without them asking, but it gets to a point of how far do you go? 

Shelley
A couple of things I want to pick up there, what you just said, Andy, the first one is when you said the issue of them bringing all the things up in one, one go, when they’re really frustrated, we would call that the feedback bomb. And it’s like when someone comes up to you and they go, Ange, we need to talk and you’re immediately like, holy It’s all a bit serious. You’re like, what is going on? Versus what you described later on, which is what we would call fast feedback. So fast feedback is to see the issue, have the conversation, see the issue, have the conversation. The way we would do this, Andy, I would come and approach you and say, Hey, Andy, I know you really care about the quality of your work. I know that about you and I know you want to grow. So I’m going to give you some feedback because I saw something on site the other day that I reckon we could do. We could improve together. Here’s what I think needs to change. Then go through the issue. Give them an example. Don’t just give them the vibe. Tell them what happened and then go, okay, Andy, what do you think you could do differently next time? So use it as a coaching opportunity, not just a telling. Yeah. And this, I guess, goes to and just the only other thing I would say for trade business owners they need to do more of is less command and control, more coach and guide. How do I step out and coach them? Which is that conversation, we have fast feedback. We say, Andy, this is what I want you to do differently next time. What do you think about this? What are your thoughts? And have a coaching conversation rather than a telling conversation. 

Andy
Yeah, that is a hundred percent true. And I know, you know, we’ve got a lot of listeners out there that are small business owners and they have limited resources, right? So, you know, that feedback you just gave there was some real practical steps around how you can talk to your team and tell them that feedback. So if you’re a business owner out there, I think that is one of the biggest ones. So just to wrap it up, what’s your final advice around how to create an unleavable team for trade business owners? 

Shelley
Yeah. So there’d be two things that we need to do. If we want to create an unleavable team, we need to reward and recognize when people live out our values and live out the behaviors that we’re saying are our must haves. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is don’t ignore or tolerate those performance issues that you see or behavioral issues that undermine your culture. If you just do that, reward and recognize when people get it right and have a fast conversation when people don’t do the right behavior or live out your culture, you will be miles ahead of other businesses that honestly what we see, they just ignore it or overlook it. So step into the mess, have the hard conversations and have the reward and recognition conversations and you’ll be miles ahead. 

Andy
There’s no doubt about it. We went through a challenging time three or four years ago with COVID, right? But I think every business owner, everyone out there can see employees are different than they were before. Now, some of them were locked up in their house for a year. Some of them had more of a lifestyle. Some of them, some of them, some of them, right? I feel that as business owners, especially people that have been in business for a long time have seen such a dramatic change. And there’s some business owners that haven’t moved with the times and they’re still trying to play the old school way. And most of those guys are losing the majority of their staff. Are you seeing something similar, Shelley? 

Shelley
Yeah. I think some business owners will say things like, we just need to get back to how it was. And I would say how it was, there isn’t a return to that. And so that’s what you’re hoping for. You’re just going to be disappointed day in, day out. So what we need to do is we actually need to understand and listen to what our employees want, and how do I make sure that what I’m delivering attracts high performers? You don’t have to meet every single request your employees have, but you do have to try and work out what the high performers want, and how do I tailor what I’m offering as an employer? To attract and keep them. 

Andy
Yeah, a hundred percent correct. You know, I even hear myself saying it more now. I’m a 50-year-old back in my day. And if you are one of those tradies that are doing that, uh, business owners that are doing back in my day, I think really we are even my son’s like, ah, enough with the back in my day, dad, you know, I’m like, okay, no worries son. But if you are thinking that way, back in your day, it’s completely changed. It’s the new way now, how do you adapt with the new way past COVID. 

Ange
And change is the only consistent thing, right? 

Andy
A hundred percent. The people that are moving with the times and you’ve got to move with the times in business in general, but definitely with your stuff. Okay Shelley, we play a bit of a game. We’re going to ask you three rapid fire questions and you have approximately up to 20 to 30 seconds to answer each one of them. Are you ready?  

Shelley
Yeah, let’s do it.  

Ange
All right, first question. What is one strategy you use to start your day right?

Shelley
I love doing a daily walk in the morning. So not a long stroll, just something like 30 minutes.

I love that. And some people think a walk’s got to be a power walk. It doesn’t. It can be a gentle Andy
walk, looking at the trees, the ocean, the park, whatever that may be. 

Ange
Nothing better to get back to nature, to be honest. 

Shelley
Exactly. 

Ange
Sunshine on your face.

Andy
Relax, yes. So what is something that has made you smile recently? 

Shelley
My kids drew, we found in my daughter’s little diary the other day, and I’ve been traveling heaps to work and she drew this thing of going, I love you, mommy, miss you when you’re away, you’re so special. And I looked at it and I did get a little bit teary because I was like, I’ve been away so much. I thought she just wrote it in a little diary and left it there. And my husband found it and he was like, look at this. Like she’s just, and they went. So that was lovely. That made me smile slash get a bit emotional. 

Andy
I love that.

Ange
Um, hot tip. Aren’t you not supposed to read your children’s diaries? What happens if you would have read something that was really bad? 

Shelley
Well, that’s who she is six and she’s got this book and like, I don’t know if it’s confidential yet, but Hey,  

Ange
Oh my gosh, it’s too cute. Okay. Last question. What’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received? 

Shelley
A CEO I worked for said, organizations don’t drift towards health, they drift towards toxicity. 

Andy
Ooh, love that.

Shelley
And for me, that has rattled around in my head so much because I think we often allow the culture we work in to drift and we don’t get intentional about the direction we want it to head. 

Andy
Yeah, that is so true. I absolutely love that.

Ange
I think it also highlights that you constantly need to work on it versus just getting complacent with your people.

Andy
You got to work on everything in life. There’s no doubt about it. And if you’re someone sitting there, playing average, then you’re not getting the results you need. 

Ange
Agreed. 

Andy
So I just want to say thanks so much Shelley for joining us on The Tradie Show and sharing all your wisdom and insights on how creating an unleavable team can help you in your trade business. I know this would have been super helpful for so many tradie bosses out there and hopefully this inspires people to make some changes. And improve things in their own business. 

Ange
Thanks so much, Shelley. Always honored to have you with us. Super insightful. We really appreciate your time. 

Shelley
Thanks, Ange. Thanks, Andy. Love hanging out. 

Andy
Only because you asked for this at the very beginning when we first jumped online. Hell yeah! There you go, Shelley. That one is just for you.  

Shelley
Thank you, sir. I did need that this morning.  

Ange
That’s like a shot of coffee right there. 

Shelley
It is. I feel the energy levels. 

Ange
Fantastic. That’s it for this week. Make sure you tune in next week for another great episode of The Tradie Show.

Andy
Have the best week.  

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