Bad habits are breaking your business: find out why! Guest starring expert Dr. Gina Cleo

Heck no. I never imagined it would turn out to be such a wild ride. Pushing our marriage to breaking point, we were caught in a pattern of action and reaction, like a blame game. The only way to break the cycle is to learn and master the skill of habit change. Being able to fall back on healthy habits in your relationship is the ticket to unchaining the cycle that you are in, and it begins with breaking or creating one habit at a time.

That’s why I’m really excited to be welcoming Dr. Gina Cleo to this podcast today because she’s been incredibly generous with her research and expert knowledge as a habit change expert in my new book. Dr. Gina Cleo, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Dr. Gina Cleo
Thank you so much and it’s great to be here.

Ange
So Gina, I’m really interested for you to tell us your story. How did you become a leading expert in habit change?

Dr. Gina Cleo
Well it’s, it’s a funny story actually cuz I initially went to university and trained as a dietician and I was a dietician working in various hospital wards. I had a private practice and I did that for over 10 years. But I guess I was starting to realize that I was helping people achieve their goals only short term. And I wanted to know more. I wanted to learn more about sustainable change and long-term impact. So I ended up putting my practice on hold. I went back to university, studied a PhD in looking just at sustainability. I had no idea really what I was trying to find, but really early on in my literature searching through medical journals, I found, you know, this wonderful theory of habit change. And ever since then, I’ve completely committed my life, my career, my everything into habit change because the research shows that it’s the only way to be able to achieve sustainable change. So that’s how I became a leading expert in habit change. I’ve been doing a whole bunch of media, because I’ve published a few studies that got a lot of media interest. I’ve presented at international conferences. I then wrote a habit change course. So it’s really been one thing that has just led to another and I find myself here now chatting with you.

Ange
That’s incredible. What an absolutely huge commitment to literally turn your life upside down. But I agree with you. I can imagine that, you know, being a dietician and teaching people about exercise and eating well and nutrition can be a lot about short-term games. So you are talking about habits and I’m interested to know what is therefore a habit.

Dr. Gina Cleo
Habits are the behaviors that we do automatically. They’re the things that would feel strange if we didn’t do them. They are the actions which are automatically responding to what we call habit cues or triggers. So when we repeat a behavior in the same context, and that context could be a time or a place or emotion or something that we just did, there are neural pathways in the brain that are created and gradually these neural pathways, become ingrained and they’re activated just when we are exposed to these cues. So, and it’s just like, if you think of things like brushing your teeth in the morning or putting on your seatbelt when you sit in the car, those things are habits because you don’t have to consciously think about them. They’re just automatic.

Ange
I can imagine it’s like, I know that I drive to work the same way every single time. I stop at the same coffee shop, sure. Every single time and I imagine that you’ll tell me that that’s an ingrained habit.

Dr. Gina Cleo
Sure is. Those are the things that you’re not having to consciously think about. You just do it. I often think of the time I first learned to drive a car and I was trying to reverse out of my driveway, and I was literally like looking for cats, making sure I was in the right gear. Yeah, like checking every mirror three times and now I just do zoomies out my driveway. I don’t even think twice about it.

Ange
Absolutely. You could almost, uh, arrive at your destination and wonder how you even reached there, right?

Dr. Gina Cleo
Yep. And that’s actually happened. Yes.

Ange
So one of the other conversations you have is about behaviors. So I’m interested to know what is the difference between our habits and our behaviors?

Dr. Gina Cleo
Hmm. So if our habits are the things that are sort of more impulsive, if we think of our habits as the part of the brain that acts quickly, impulsively, subconsciously, intuitively, there are reactions, are automatic responses to things. Our behaviors are the opposite of that. So it’s the part of our brain that acts slower intentionally. It’s deliberate, it’s conscious, it’s analytical, it’s logical. You know, our behaviors, exhibit reasoning and self-regulation. So the difference between them is essentially our habits are our automatic actions. Those things we don’t think about, whereas our behavior. Those very conscious and effortful actions. It’s the thought of what’s the best way to get from A to B? Or what should I make for dinner tonight? They’re the things that we’re not doing automatically. They’re essentially our behaviors.

Ange
So one of the quotes that you had in the book was, habits are the invisible blueprint of our everyday life. It’d be great for you to share your thoughts about this.

Dr. Gina Cleo
You know, anywhere between 45 to 85% of everything we do every day is habitual. Hundreds of habits influence how you live your life and guide how you act from day to day. You know how you eat, sleep, talk to your loved ones, how you get dressed, how you drive your car, how you do business, and whether you exercise or have a glass of wine after work. Essentially how you unthinkingly spend your time. Attention, money is predominantly habitual. We like to think that we are actually making decisions for our lives. We’re weighing up the pros and cons, and we’re deciding what’s gonna be best for us. But the reality is we operate out of autopilot most of the time. And that’s where that quote comes in, is that habits are the invisible blueprint of our everyday life. If up to 85% of what we are doing is on autopilot, we’ve got this blueprint of habits that we are just kind of laid out, it’s just laid out for us and we are just playing it out each day.

Ange
So in the book we discuss whether the label tradie wife could be updated better to reflect the role of women in trade business. Do you have some thoughts on this, Gina?

Dr. Gina Cleo
I think labels are a really personal thing. Some women will take to the label, tradie wife favorably, and others probably won’t. Your title is a statement that you put forward in front of yourself and others, whether that’s your partner, your team, or your customers. You know, it’s a statement of where you sit in that trade business. It’s a symbolic representation of what you do and what value you bring. I personally think of a tradie wife as the backbone of the entire business. She is the powerhouse, the CEO, the Chief Executive Officer. The chief Operations Officer, the Chief Financial Officer. But others might think of a tradie wife as someone who is helping out her partner. So it’s really all about perspective and personal preference and how you feel about your title. It’s just gotta sit well with you.

Ange
I think that’s a really valid point. I do believe that subconsciously, whatever they label themselves, they will take ownership. And so hence this self-belief almost subliminally gets layered because they have given themselves a title. And I do definitely recommend that for any tradie wife or the she, the partner inside the business. I do believe it’s important that she does actually have an email signature as an example that reflects whatever that title is that she truthfully believes represents her role. Operations manager, business manager, lady boss, whatever you wanna say. Because even your customers at times will treat you accordingly just simply because of what that says. But even that is the habits that get embedded into their world because they have a belief subliminally about how they see themselves. So this leads me to my next question, Gina. Statistically, women are still carrying lots more of the mental and domestic load, and it really is one of our biggest causes of stress. But in reverse, men are also stereotyped as being self-sufficient, never asking for help, and basically they have a, you’ll be right, make kind of mentality. How can positive habits and mindset help even up the load?

Dr. Gina Cleo
You know, it’s funny because when we think about habits, we often think of things like smoking or exercising, but the way we think is also very habitual. Our stereotypes and beliefs can be habits and some of these beliefs will be helpful, but others will be unhelpful. When we are raising the topic of mindset with our partners, I think it’s important to break things down and work out what beliefs are serving you as an individual, as a couple and as a business partner. And what beliefs are hindering those dynamics or holding you back? You know, it’s important to go into that conversation like this with non-judgmental curiosity. Listen, really listen to what your partner has to say. Ask questions. Dig deep, get to the bottom of why they might be holding on to some of those beliefs. I actually often find that most of the time the person that I’m talking to didn’t even realize they held some of these stereotypes. And they’ll say, okay, well it’s really interesting that you think like that. I’m curious as to why you hold that belief. And I find, oftentimes they’ll go, I don’t know. I thought that’s just the way it is. And then you can have that conversation about whether this is serving us or not? And the identity that that puts on you as an individual. So oftentimes just that curious conversation can be enough to change their stance on those stereotypes that they’ve previously held.

Ange
I agree. Having an open conversation with your partner is so critically important, and to your point, helping them understand whatever that habit is, how it’s making you feel. So, I know a prime example in my world of working in the trade business is when I first came in and I would sit in a toolbox meeting with our team and Andy would refer to me as the admin girl. And to be honest, he would say it and jest. To him, it was a bit of a laugh and probably because he got a little bit of a rise out of me. So although I didn’t verbally say anything back, it was probably my mannerisms that was enough to make him realize that I didn’t like the term, but it really did stick. And what I’m hearing from you, is that made me feel really bad, but I just accepted that that’s just the way it was when what I should have been doing is sitting him down and explaining that something so simple and so little that has now a habit for you that every time that we sat down at a toolbox meeting, he used that terminology and jest, which made the team start using that terminology and jest. They thought it was acceptable, but they didn’t understand how I felt.

Dr. Gina Cleo
Beautiful. And that’s exactly, as such a great example what you are sharing there. It’s that it was just using jest as probably like a lighthearted thing. You didn’t even think much of it, but for you it was impacting not only at the moment that it was said, but also how you felt about yourself in front of the other people that were in that room. How did you go after the conversation? I’m really curious.

Ange
To be honest, Andy’s pretty open so, he does react well when you actually put it, you know, blatantly explain, not rudely. Yeah, I think it was important that I sat him down and just explained how that made me feel. And hence I didn’t want him to do that anymore. But I’d be interested to hear your opinion about what is the best way to break any unhelpful habits that we perhaps have.

Dr. Gina Cleo
Yeah, so there are two ways that research shows we can break habits. And to understand that we have to first understand the anatomy of a habit. So let me quickly give you a crash course in that.

Ange
Great.

Dr. Gina Cleo
So every habit has three key ingredients, and they are the trigger, the routine or the habit itself, and then some sort of reward. Every single habit that you have is triggered by something. Putting on your seatbelt in the car is a habit that’s triggered by you sitting in the car. You don’t have the urge to put on your seatbelt when you sit at your desk or at the dining table. It only happens in the car, so habits are always triggered by something else. If you have a habit of doing something, the first thing to ask yourself is, where am I? Who am I with? What time of day is it? What am I feeling? You are really trying to identify the triggers for that habit. And I guess with breaking habits, it’s then again, understanding when it’s happening, what’s just happened before, and looking at trying to avoid those triggers. Sometimes it’s possible and sometimes it’s not possible to avoid the trigger, but if you can avoid the trigger, you’ve avoided the habit. All together. If you can’t avoid the trigger, then it’s really about replacing that habit with something that’s gonna be serving you better. So I’ll give you an analogy of let’s say every time you come home in the evening, you eat a cookie. Initially, a mental link becomes formed between getting home and eating a cookie. Until eventually just the perception of you coming home is going to prompt you to want to eat a cookie. And cuz this link forms in your brain. You can’t not come home because no, you live at home . But what you can do is set an intention of when I come home, I am going to, and then you’ve got to change your environment. So that would be, I’m gonna walk into the bedroom and have a shower, or I’m gonna get changed, or you’ve gotta walk somewhere other than the kitchen straight away, because that’s been the trigger initially. So it’s identifying the triggers, it’s setting a new intention for the new habit that you wanna do. Instead, that’s how we break habits. It’s really difficult to say, I’m gonna come home and I’m gonna walk into the kitchen. I’m not gonna eat that cookie.

Ange
No.

Dr. Gina Cleo
Because as soon as your brain is triggered, it’s already started to fire the neural pathways required to take the next step, which is eating the cookie.

Ange
Flex, telling your child don’t touch that thing.

And the first thing they do is touch it. .

Dr. Gina Cleo
Exactly. Exactly. And how many times have we said, no. I’m not gonna eat that cookie. The cookie won’t defeat me. I am a strong, independent woman. And then next minute, there’s two cookies in my mouth at once. .

Ange
Oh, a box of two tens.

Dr. Gina Cleo
Yes. I think oftentimes we focus so much on the behavior that we wanna change, that we don’t look at the trigger, when really it’s all about looking at the triggers. And I think with language, the triggers are often, they’re a little bit more ambiguous. But they can be. When I’m in a meeting, for example, like you mentioned before, with your partners, when you’re in a meeting, he used to call you the admin girl. That could have been his trigger, and so it’s then setting the intention. When I enter a meeting, I’m going to refer to my partner as, and you set that intention prior to entering that meeting.

Ange
So I could imagine you could fall off the wagon. So if I go back to your cookie analogy, although I have every intention of walking into that house and not eating that cookie and going to have a shower. I could fail, right? What do I do then?

Dr. Gina Cleo
Oh yeah. It’s not that you could fail, you will fail. , it’s, like it says, is not a linear process as much as we would love for it to be, and habits are because they’re subconscious. And we’re not always aware of them. There are things that happen automatically, and so oftentimes we are performing the habit and then halfway through it we’re like, oh, wait, I said I wasn’t gonna do that. Oops. And you know, it’s already, it’s, it’s already started. So when you find yourself in those situations where you haven’t succeeded at what you wanted to do, it’s really about picking yourself up as quickly as possible. It’s not about if you fail, it’s about when you, I like to use fall rather than fail. It’s, yes. It’s not about when you fall. When you fall, and it’s not waiting till Monday, waiting till the new year, waiting for the next week. No, it’s doing it now. Just get up now, pick yourself up. And the more you do a habit, the more habitual and automatic it’ll become. And it’s exactly the same. The less you do a habit, the less automatic and the less habitual it’ll become. So every time you do or don’t do the things, it matters. Every time matters.

Ange
I clearly hear you say, be very conscious around whatever it is you are trying to change. Be conscious and give thought to perhaps what that trigger was or the cue so that you can either prevent you from doing that thing. And or replace because as you said, you cannot walk inside the house. That was a great example, and therefore my reward will be something else. I’m gonna feel good about myself because I have done this every single day for 30 days straight, for instance, by not eating that cookie. So yeah, trigger routine reward. Beautiful.

Dr. Gina Cleo
Yeah.

Ange
So Gina, with all our guests, we like to play our rapid fire questions game, and I’m gonna shoot three questions at you and you’ve got 30 seconds to answer them. Are you ready?

Dr. Gina Cleo
Ooh. All right. Hit me.

Ange
All right. What’s the best thing about being a habit change educator?

Dr. Gina Cleo
Ah, easy. Helping people genuinely transform their lives and seeing the freedom that they experience as a result of the power of habits.

Ange
Absolutely. Awesome. What do you wish you’d known sooner?

Dr. Gina Cleo
I wish I knew that I wasn’t actually a failure, that I was just trying to use all the wrong tools to try to achieve what I was trying to achieve in life.

Ange
I think it’s a bit of a journey, isn’t it?

Dr. Gina Cleo
Oh yeah.

Ange
If we just get better and master what we do as we go.

Dr. Gina Cleo
Yeah.

Ange
And I think the older we get, the more we realize we don’t know and hence need to be even more of a sponge.

Dr. Gina Cleo
Yes. And it’s okay not to know.

Ange
No, I agree. And my last question, what’s the one habit you swear by?

Dr. Gina Cleo
Oh, I get asked this one quite a lot. I’ve got an answer already. It’s a movement. It’s moving your body, exercising, you know you sleep better, you concentrate better. You’ve got a hit of endorphins. You reduce your stress, anxiety, and depression levels. It’s like movement is just, if I could have it in a pill, I would.

Ange
I swear by it too, and I love that answer. That’s amazing. Gina, thanks so much for your input in the book, Tradie Wife: Why winging it isn’t working, and for sharing your knowledge with all of our tradie wives and the trade community in general. And thank you so much for joining us on the show today. It’s been absolutely fabulous having you here.

Dr. Gina Cleo
Oh, it’s been my absolute pleasure and thank you so much for having me on board. I’ll speak to you again soon.

Ange
For any of you listening, remember to grab your copy by heading to www.lifestyletradie.com.au. That’s it from me today. Next week Andy is gonna be back as co-host. So we’ll see you then.