Taking ownership: Guest starring Tom Potter, founder of Eagle Boys Pizza

Ange
Tom, you’ve got a resume that would impress most founders of Eagle Boys Pizza, the best bloody pizza on the block. Can you walk us through your business journey?

Tom
Yeah, very briefly. Um, I started the business when I was 23 in, uh, 1987. And that was an interesting period because there really wasn’t much home delivered pizza in the regional markets. And then as we grew throughout the regional markets, we then went into the cities and over the next 20 years we opened about 280 stores across Australia and New Zealand. Mm-hmm. . And then after, I think it was 21 years, I sold the business to a, um, local, Brisbane based venture capital group with a management buyer. Hoping that it would continue on its merry way because one of the things the company needed was more capital. And one of the great, um, problems for me was as, as a hundred percent shareholder, the banks would always be standing there saying, yeah, but what if you get hit by a bus? Mm-hmm. . So after selling, I retained about 20%, and then I saw them bring in a CEO who basically changed everything, changed the entire model.

 Andy
Wow.

Tom
And the company completely disintegrated over the following 10 years. So we went from number two in Australia. Gone crazy. So, of course that was nearly 14 years ago now. Mm-hmm. . So, uh, since I went on there and I’m, I’m into a couple of other businesses, which we’ll talk about later.

 Andy
Yeah. Looking forward to talking about them as well. So in business, Tom, what are the issues with doing it the old way or the way your previous boss did, or even just copying what similar businesses are doing around you and now you are the king of spin and you’ve always found a different way.

Tom
When we opened Eagle Boys, we were the first in the market. So you’ve always got this sort of smile on your face like Richard Branson carries because he’s like, oh, look at me. I’ve got this new model and everybody wants to be me. I mean, what’s nice about it is that it lasts for about as long as when your competitors catch up to you and then overtake you. So one of our most difficult periods initially was when we were first in the market. We were the best in the market. Then our competitors came in and they were just as good, if not better, and then they were cheaper. Mm-hmm. And then all of our guys said, hang on, everything we did yesterday worked. Why isn’t it working now? So we then became followers, and then we became strugglers, and then we had to reinvent ourselves. So, one of my approaches after that is, look guys, we have to continue to be leaders. I don’t want to be looking over my shoulder waiting for a competitor to come running past us and smack us around the ears again. Yeah, I wanna be the one that our competitors are scared of. They’re going, what are these guys up to now? What are they doing next? What’s more creative? What’s a better way of doing business that they’ve actually found? When I went over to the US and studied I, I did three years over there doing case studies. Some of the most fascinating case studies were based on guys that looked at a grungy, rusty, old business that nobody really loved or cared about anymore, and they turned it into something that was quite amazing. And, you know, you look at ’em, one of them was a guy that was buying old railway lines, actual routes. Mm-hmm. , you know, you go. How are you gonna buy a railway line and change it? But they looked at the way they freighted things, they looked at the way they delivered things. They looked at the way that the consumers wanted their delivery and they turned it into gold.

 Andy
So huge.

Tom
I think when you, when you do look at business, you have to continually look at not just what’s worked in the past, because a lot of that is valuable, but what is it that consumer’s going to want over the next couple of years that they’re not getting now?

 Andy
Yeah, exactly, mate. I a hundred percent agree that you’re always gonna beat that forefront. I just wanna touch on something that when you were presenting to us and our Lifestyle Tradie members, you said something that really stuck with me and it was something on the words of, in small business you eat what you kill and, and you have to go hunting every day. You know, do you do things differently to grow or can you explain the thinking around this sentence?

Tom
Yeah, so we’ve just opened our new business up in Townsville, Galactic Donuts. Yes. And we were doing 10,000 bucks a day when we opened. Right. So everybody came in to try it. Mm. If you asked me what would’ve been the perfect way to open, I would’ve said, I would’ve liked to solve. $5,000 worth of donuts and had outstanding customer service and, and been able to do everything perfectly, right? Mm-hmm. . And we had a couple of, um, problems with some of the equipment, which basically it, it’s, I, it’s a big deal because when you go in and you buy a filled donut, let’s say it’s a nutella donut, you want about 30 grams of an nutella. And our machines weren’t working properly, so some of our customers were giving hammers and, shit, there’s no, no teller in this. Now we got customer complaints, we managed those, but I sat back after three weeks and said, you know, we really want to entice the customers back in the door. Anybody that might have been not so impressed with us, or somebody that might have been, um, put off with not getting exactly what they wanted. So we’re sort of sitting back, and doing nothing. I’ve said to my partner, let’s get out there this week and just off, but buy four donuts, get two free. Let’s just run the whole thing Monday to Friday. Let’s get the customers back in and impress the shit out of them. And then, you know, we’ll run that for two weeks, which is tactical, which gets people in, it gets us trying us, it gets them liking us. And then you’re getting up. The following week and you go, now what are we gonna do next week? So I think the big one is to literally put a post-it note on the back of the toilet door. Mm. And it says, what are you doing for the customer next week? Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s constant. And when I spoke about that in the, um, at the conference, I took a leaf outta my father’s book who would constantly be looking for ways to maintain his customers, even though he sold his product at a much higher price than his competitor. He was competing with Coca-Cola, so that was a big job for him.

Ange
You can’t rest on your laurels, right? As a business owner, you’ve gotta constantly be creating and moving forward and think about your customers. All the time.

 Andy
Yeah, exactly. And I know the, uh, a follow up on that I, your motto, and you mentioned it at the event as well, don’t be all things to all people and be a zebra amongst horses. You know, how can we do that in our trade business?

Tom
Well, I’ll just tell you one little story. I’m not sure if I mentioned it at the conference, but I went and spoke at a conference for Reco. Now I always thought Reco was a business that sold car parts. Now that was the first aha moment and I got there and realized, 400 businesses that were basically mechanical workshops. Yeah. And they’re very good mechanical workshops. They run off a good model. They’ve got, um, good scale in them, but each and every one of them’s individually owned. So I was playing golf with one of the young blokes, uh, the next day, and he got chatting to me. He asked me the same question. He said, you know, I’d pretty much do what everyone else does, servicing cars, changing oil, you know, all the stuff that is boring, is batched. And he said, What can I do? Um, and my question to him was, so when you’ve dealt with a customer, what do you do for? He goes, what do you mean? I said, well, what have you done for the customer after the sale? Yeah. And his response was, oh, we put a card on the front seat saying thank you. And I said, you might as well put a card on the front seat saying F you, because no one cares. It’s just a piece of paper . So I said to him, what’s the average customer spend? And it, and it was a big number, like it was about $480 or something. And I said, when men come in to get their car service, put a six pack of, uh, brownies on the front seat and say, thanks. Nice. What’s that cost? Probably 10 bucks. Make sure they’re cold. . Yeah. And I said to the women, put a pack of cabbage roses on the front seat and just say thank you. Right. And, uh, he came back to me six months later and he said, we’ve had an increase mainly with women by as much as 60%. Because the woman was, they always feel intimidated when they take a car in to get it serviced. They now feel comfortable because the service guy stands there and gives them probably three minutes of gobbledy go. They don’t understand. Then they give ’em a bill and say, piss off. But then they get in the car and it says, thanks so much for coming in. We appreciate your business. Here’s a box of chocolates. Mm-hmm. They go to all their girlfriends cuz they have a morning tea and they tell ’em, you know, I usually feel screwed by the mechanic, but for some reason today I felt a little bit better cause they gave me something. And he said he’d had a huge upturn by just thinking about what he was doing. After the transaction, you know, what are you doing for me after the transaction? And I always find that real estate agents who are the biggest assholes on earth, in most cases, missed the point because they’ve just made a 50 or $80,000 transaction. Yeah. Where is my case of, of champagne or my carton of beer that says, Hey mate, thanks for doing business and leaving on the front doorstep. You know, really a carton of beer, 40 bucks. Because next time I go to sell a house, which would be another 50 or 60 grand in your pocket. I’ll come to you. Yeah. So they’re the kind of things I think we just need to think about after the transaction. What are we doing for the customer? Yeah. After the sale.

Ange
Especially when you start thinking about trade businesses, when coming back to use that service again, think plumbing, electrical, pest control, that kind of stuff is actually a given. So that trade will often come back into a house. So it is important that, I mean, I love this story about, you know, giving the females a box of chocolates cuz she will actually say, oh my God, these guys went over and above. They gave me a gift. And on the other side, even if it was like a trade company where you don’t come back as frequently. I as a female will still brag about your service if you left me with a lasting wow moment, and it sounds so little, your sentence about just leaving this thing on the front of the chair, but it actually, it’s the lasting impression, right? We talk about repeat clients and loyalty and Yeah. Bragging to your mate.

 Andy
I, I’m just, I’m just thinking back about five years ago with Dr. Drip, when we used to give them about a 5 cent bag of jelly beans. And I was like, you freaking tired asses. I just spent a thousand bucks with you. And he gave ’em some jelly beans.

Ange
Had a Dr. Drip stress ball.

 Andy
We had a stress ball. Lots of other things. And I think the point is lasting impressions. Yeah, the point is here. You know, in all business you’ve gotta be the zebra amongst the horses. Yeah. And make sure you stand out. I know you’ve been amazing at doing this, and I think in business you can’t always do things by the book as well. And in order to get yourself off the ground, can you tell us, uh, perhaps a little bit of something that you have done that wasn’t part of the, the typical story of setting a business up that really worked for you?

Tom
For me, it’s always about marketing. It’s always about having a look at your consumers. Mm-hmm. And actually getting in their psyche. Right? I mean, stop thinking how you think and start thinking how they think. Right. And I’ll, I’ll just go back to the donut business we opened in Townsville. It’s on a corner location, but it’s tucked away. And there is a massive fence that runs right across the corner location where I reckon there’s 25,000 cars a day.

 Andy
Wow.

Tom
Going past. And it’s blank. And I’ve looked at this fence and gone, I need a 10 meter sign on that fence. A 10 meter sign. Yeah. And it says Galactic Donuts with a big arrow. That’s all we need.

Ange
You know, everyone loves a donut .

Tom
They do, but they’d love to know where they are. Agreed. And when you open up in Townsville and you’re telling people you’re on the radio and, and you’re doing social media, but people still go where?

 Andy
Yeah, exactly.

Tom
And if I know there’s 20,000 cars going past that site, why aren’t I telling them I’m here, I’m here. You know? That’s all I had. I didn’t have NAF to offer them anything retail. It’s just like, here I am. Here’s what I do. So I think that harps back on the old Gorilla marketing approach we used to do with Eagle Boys, where you’d have a kid standing out on the side of the road dressed up in the Eagle costume. Yes, I remember that. . Yeah. Yeah. But at four o’clock in the afternoon when the customers, the mums, the tradies, the kids were all going home. So they’d see you and we just forget, people have to see you all the time to remember you. If you think you’re gonna go out there and put a mag in the letter box once a month, that might give you a response. But is it giving you enough response? So I, I just like to think we have to be constantly seen. If anybody out there hasn’t got extensive sign writing done on their tradesman’s vehicles, telling people what they do. They’re missing a mobile billboard opportunity.

Ange
Absolutely.

 Andy
I just wanna point out, um, Dr. Drip, when we very first started, we had the main intersection on the Northern beaches and I Yes. I knew, um, one of my mates’ mums lived on the corner and I put this huge Dr. Drip banner there and everyone would laugh at it. And, and I’d put it up and, and, um, I think I had it up for about three months before the council came knocking and another plumber had dobbed me in and said, you gotta get that thing down. But I had so many customers say that every afternoon they’d see it. So very similar.

Ange
I like the simplicity of that. I agree with what you just said, Tom. People tend to forget who you are and unless you’re putting something really obvious that’s really simple in front of their face consistently, they actually don’t remember you.

Tom
Yeah. It’s so easy to forget if something else has actually been shoved in your face. And don’t forget that 5,000 messages a day are being hit into the consumer’s minds now, and I think. More like 8,000 a day by probably the end of this year because of what’s happening on social media and digital marketing and everything else.

Ange
Mm-hmm. So marketing in general, like a lot of tradies will say, oh, this is just another thing that I just need to know really, really well. And some tradies do actually come unstuck in business cuz they think they actually have to be amazing at everything they say, I need to be amazing in customer service. I need to know how to sell. I need to be really marketing savvy. Uh, I need to be a financial gurus. Uh, not to mention amazing tradies and business ladies.

 Andy
Yeah, that’s right Ange and I mean, it makes you wonder, isn’t it? We have to be everything and the kitchen sink. And so many people are saying to me, I wear so many hats. But Tom, in your opinion, should we be good at everything or simply stick to what we’re best at?

Tom
So what I like to do is I like to draw a circle. And inside the circle there’s a bunch of things. It says bookkeeping, staff management, hr, customer service, marketing, and so forth. Right? These are all the things we have to do to run our business. Mm-hmm. But then what I’ll do is I grab a red marker and I go, what are the two or three things that will sustain the business successfully? And I can tell you now, one of them will be bookkeeping. Right. So you grab your marker and you go that one there and that one, there are the ones I need to focus on. Now, if somebody’s got a highly established business and they’re literally struggling to keep up with their customer base, it may not be extensive marketing, it may be post-sale marketing to continue to look after the existing customers and have them do the word mouth for them. But if it’s a newer business that’s struggling for new customers, it might be, you know what? We’ve gotta focus on two things here. We’ve gotta get our marketing right and we’ve gotta make sure our customer service is spot on. And I literally say everything else on that chart, it doesn’t matter. Yeah, it doesn’t matter because they will fix themselves. But those two kernels, the things that will drive the business, and I think I said this when I met with you guys. Mm-hmm. Customers will want 10 things, but only two will matter. Two will drive the transaction. And sometimes you even have to sit down with a customer and go, look, we know you want this and we know you want that, but what are the two driving factors? And a lot of customers will say, look, I don’t really care so much about this, this, and this, but that there, that’s the number one priority for me. I need to get it done on time, or I need to get it done within this price range or whatever. Right. Okay. I’m listening to you. I’ll go away and I’ll give you what you need.

Ange
That comes back to me about knowing your market segment, right? Like knowing your avatar and seeing life through their eyes about what’s important. And you’ve not only just talked about you know who that person is, but what’s actually important to them specifically and actually delivering on that. And that is so critically important.

 Andy
And I think you’ve gotta know within yourself your strengths as well.

Ange
And true.

 Andy
You know, I know there, if you look at most trades out there, there’s probably two or three things that are your best money spinner. So, you know, as a business we should be working on that. And they’re the things to customers, they’re more of the emergency stuff that can’t wait. It’s gotta be done now and it’s really important to get it done. So yeah, it’s about having a mixture and knowing what you need. But you’re right. You gotta know what your customers want. And we’re really big about retention and everything we do. It’s all around retention and a lot of people spend all their money on getting people in the door, but retention is one of the biggest things.

Tom
Yeah. So I think that dialogue on postal marketing is a big one.

Ange
Yep. So I just wanna change tact a little bit and just say that every generation literally gets disrupted and there are challenges that we have to face. So my point is, what worked 10 years ago or in this digital age, what even worked maybe even two years ago won’t work anymore. So, Tom, how can we keep reinventing ourselves?

Tom
I was having some, um, dialogue with someone the other day and I was talking about how I went down to speak at one of Australia’s probably biggest franchise businesses in the nineties at their conference. And it was fantastic cuz it was at the ballroom at, uh, crown Casino and everyone was rah rah, rah and punching the air. Mm-hmm. and I walked off the stage and I thought, I wonder if these guys are gonna be around in 10 years because the industry they’re in really starts to look like it’s gonna be concerning. And it was called, uh, blockbuster video. Mm-hmm. Of course, 10 years later, the multi-billion dollar company that it was, was completely wiped out. Disruption at the moment is coming on quite a few fronts and some of them are obviously technology, but don’t get too bogged down on that. What I’m seeing is the tools to run your business and these simple tools Yeah. That a lot of people go, oh shit, I just don’t wanna deal with more technology. But I just had to, um, master a new rostering system. System called Deputy. I dunno if you’re familiar with it.

 Andy
Yeah. We don’t know it yet.

Ange
Get off it.

Tom
And uh, I thought, you know what, I’ll just master this bastard myself because I wanna learn it. And, uh, it didn’t take long and it was a little frustrating, but holy shit, what a great system where you set your rosters and you press a button and, and a text goes out to every one of the staff. Yeah. You know, and you’re sitting there thinking, God, the old school way of doing this and sending out emails and hanging up rosters on the walls and so forth. So I think for those people that are a little bit uncomfortable, I’m in, I’m 58 with, oh shit, I’ve gotta put another tier of technology into my business. I would be saying, you should fear not doing it because your competitor will be, and next thing you know, they’ll be running right past you and you’ll be going, shit, what have they done that I haven’t?

 Andy
Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think that in all trade businesses out there, there’s times that we know we can be better, but we just can’t be bothered or it’s too hard, or it’s this or it’s that. But getting the right structure in the business and the right systems is definitely the future. Now I’m just gonna change tacts that little bit and I, I heard a story about you. You actually got robbed at gunpoint, just like in the movies tied up on the floor. You were laying there. I mean, how did you handle that?

Tom
It’s actually happened twice.

 Andy
Wow.

Tom
In fact, I’ve been in three armed robberies. But when you say, how do you handle it nowadays? You’ve got all of these things in place for mental health management and stress management and everything else. We just didn’t have any of those kinds of things in those days. Yeah, and I, I never gave it a second thought. It was more like, we’ve gotta get up tomorrow morning and get the payroll done and get on with whatever we’ve gotta do.

 Andy
So can you give us a quick snapshot of the story? What, actually, tells us what happened.

Tom
Uh, yeah. I was walking out the back of the shop around closing time and, um, it was actually an inside job. We found later that it was one of the ex-employees and, uh, he bailed us out with a shotgun, took us back in the store and tied us up and then proceeded to open the safe and go. And it turned out to be a horrible store ladder cuz it was a murder attached to it and everything else.

Ange
Gosh.

Tom
One of the other guys that was involved, he actually did get a substantial amount of counseling. Um, I got none. I got none and never really thought twice about it. And there’s been a whole lot of other circumstances in my life that I think were much more life-threatening than that. But I just think of situations like that, my general opinion is I think a lot more people need to toughen up. The difference between those that actually succeed in business and those that don’t are the ones that bite their bottom lip and get over it. And stop sitting back and going, oh, oh, well was me, this happened to me. Stop being a victim . And you know, just get on with it.

 Andy
And I know a lot of tradies who will be saying that out there. I know times are changing a little bit, but I can just remember, I think I heard you saying the headline was something like, Spider-Man Rob’s Eagle Boys and it was like front page news or something. I mean, I spent a great PR on the business.

Tom
Well, it was, definitely, it was definitely good exposure. I dunno if it was good PR, but those are the kind of things that you can turn into positives. And we certainly had, um, a massive incident happen some years later where we ran an advertising campaign advising the consumers that we were using Australian pineapple. Now you have to be very careful when you’re advertising on emotion because emotion doesn’t last long and it, unless it affects someone’s pocket, in other words, it helps them out. They’re not really that interested. And um, when we ran this promotion and we only ran it for six weeks, we did get a big uptake. A lot of customers, particularly in the regional areas, are saying, oh shit, if we buy from Eagle Boys, we’ll buy Australian pineapple, which was Golden Circle. Yeah. Versus imported. And we were sued by Pizza Hut in federal court for misleading, deceptive conduct. And we went to federal court, the case was passed over. Basically the judge said, I think they have the right to continue to advertise their message. We think you’re barking up the wrong tree, but feel free to run the case. And there was the opportunity. There is when we had 20 or 30 reporters come in, they’re all over the story. It’s um, little guy versus the big guy. And we took a great opportunity. If we had lost that case, we would’ve had a huge exposure. If we had won that case, we would’ve had huge exposure. There was absolutely no doubt if it was managed well.

 Andy
Yeah. Yeah.

Tom
So I suppose what I’m pointing at is, If there is a negative, there is a positive opportunity to come out of it.

 Andy
And that’s the way you should always look at business. We all have negatives at times. What are we gonna do to turn that around and be positive?

Ange
Well use this opportunity for exposure so that any negative to, as you say, becomes a positive in the marketplace, which is, uh, putting it yourself in front of the consumer, which is what you want.

 Andy
You definitely don’t want the negative of ripping off old games and on a current affair, we don’t do that. But hey mate, we play, um, a game. It’s rapid fire questions. I’m gonna do three of them. You have less than 30 seconds to answer them. Are you ready?

Tom
Yes.

 Andy
Great. So building up such a massive company in, don’t underestimate how big this company was, you know, It takes serious hard work and dedication. And the thing that I see with most trade business owners is like, I was absolute control freaks. So how do you personally learn to delegate and let go of control?

Tom
Where I learned to let go of control and delegate was to spend a lot more time employing the right people, so I stopped employing the wrong people and fixing all of their mistakes. And I employed the right people in the first place. So if you’ve got the slightest inkling, this person doesn’t fit culturally or they don’t have the right skill set, or they’re not really ready to be trained in the way you do business, you’re better off having no one than someone who’s a complete screw up. So employ quickly and sac even faster.

 Andy
Mate, that’s awesome. And I know that we talk a lot about, um, and you talked about this as well when, when you talked at Lifestyle Tradie. Having the right structure and systems in place, then finding the right people to follow that can certainly take a lot of that control. And that’s what we did in our business, Dr. Drip as well. So what’s the hardest thing you’ve ever learned in business?

Tom
I think the hardest thing I’ve ever learned in business is to forgive yourself for your mistakes. Yeah. And I actually, um, got to spend a lot of time with Rupert Murdoch, CFO when I was in the States and he used to call Rupert the king of screw ups. And I said, why? And he goes, Rupert makes a lot of errors, horrible errors, but he said he just forgives himself and moves on. And he said, if he can do it anyway, we can do it. . Yeah. So I think if you continue to forgive yourself for the mistakes that you make, but you know, obviously take the lessons out of them, you’ll do extremely well. But people get so bogged down with beating up on themselves that, oh no, I stuffed it up two years ago. I’ll never try it again. It’s like, really? Come on, let’s move on.

 Andy
And I, and I love putting business back to sport and the best sports stars can make a million mistakes, but when they get it right, they win the game and take home the prize. So the third question, mate, is what is one piece of advice for all the trade business owners that are out there right now listening today?

Tom
Um, I just think that, You find the one or two things that are going to help you drive your business in a successful manner and focus on them first. And don’t be bogged down with all the little bullshit things and the items and the bookkeeping and everything else. Get focused on the stuff that matters and that will fix a lot of the other stuff that’s dragging you down.

 Andy
That is awesome, buddy.

Ange
High return on investment tasks. I totally agree. Tom, that’s been awesome having you on the show today. Thanks so much for being an open book and sharing your business journey with us. What an eye-opening experience this has been.

 Andy
Yeah, I second that mate. You’re an absolute superstar. Um, we’ve spent a bit of time with you now and it’s always great. You’re someone that’s been there, done that. You’re just like a tradie. You know, you’ll, you’ll throw a few swear words in here and there, and you’re Aladdin. And it was so good having you be a part of our event and you were incredible and I just wanna say huge thank you for coming on here and talking to our listeners today, mate.

Tom
Thank you. Thanks for having me along, but congratulations to yourselves as well. I actually think that the model you’ve got, the way that you’re structuring what you do and how you do it is actually quite impressive and it’s got good longevity. I see some cooperative models or franchise models or license models and I think, oh, they’re shit and they’re not gonna last. I sort of looked at yours and gone value for money. And what the guys are getting. I think it’s a terrific model and, um, it, it, it will continue to be sustained. And talking to the people in the room, they all said the same thing, so well done.

Ange
Thanks so much, Tom. Yeah, I know trade business owners and their partners truthfully need a lot of help. Unfortunately, they’ve not taught a lot of business when it comes to TAFE, so, uh, I really appreciate your words.

 Andy
I think the big thing, mate, and you talked about this. It’s all about community and it’s all about us all as one. And there’s a lot of love in that room and everyone wants to help each other out, and it’s just such an amazing community, you know? And having 200 of the best trade business owners in Australia in one room helping each other, it’s just so powerful, mate. So thanks again. Yes, you were absolutely amazing. And thanks for those kind words at the end.

Tom
No problem. All the best.

 Andy
Right, oh Ange. I think I am hungry for pizza. What do you think?

Ange
I think I want a donut.

 Andy
Ooh donuts.

Ange
You are buying. Catch you later guys.