Your next hire: Qualified tradie or apprentice?

Andy
That is a great question, isn’t it? And it, I’ve had this same question many, many times in the past, and really you’ve gotta weigh up the pros and cons of each and decide which would be best for your business. So I definitely have some thoughts around this to share on this topic today. Uh, I’ve got many thoughts, many thoughts, but just to mention the word of apprentice has brought up a bunch of memories of me, which I think everyone will have a good laugh at.

Ange
Oh, lucky us. Good, love a story. You know what I think a lot of people have heaps of funny stories when it comes to apprentices and mainly their own personal story, I’d say, you know how you see those viral videos about apprentices actually having tricks played on them that some might say are probably pretty stupid and maybe really embarrassing.

Andy
Yeah, there’s gonna be, there’s some, there’s some pretty tough and actually mean and bullying ones out there. Um, mine wasn’t about that, but yeah. Geez. I’ll tell you what, if I tell you this one, you’re gonna totally think what is going on with this?

Ange
Come on, let us in.

Andy
But we had work experience, you know, at school I went to a, an incredible school called Narrabeen High in Narrabeen in Sydney, and, and I had to go do some work experience for this plumbing company. And, um, you know, went for a week and, and I was the type of kid that I just wanted to do everything right. So I, whatever they said, I would do it. If they said jump, I’d be like, how high? You know? So I, I was really getting stuck in, and, and this one day, it would’ve been about three days in, we’re doing some chasing and we’d, um, chase some brick workout and, and we’d run some pipes in the brick work, I mean, and the other tradie. And, and he said to me, okay, he said, what I’m gonna have to get you to do, Is he gonna have to go and get a bucket of steam? And I went, huh? A bucket of steam. He goes, yeah, yeah, a bucket of steam. I said, well, why is that? And he goes, because we’re gonna steam these pipes to make sure the coppers looking nice and shiny. And I looked at him, I’m like, really? He goes, yeah. I said, well, where am I gonna get a bucket of steam from? And he said, well, you know, down, we’re on a big development site, like a 40 story building, right? We’re only about two grounds, um, only two stories out of the grant. And he said, you know, down there near the shed where all the laborers and that near the lunch sheds. He said, yeah. He said, there’s a house next to that and a couple of the laborers are renting the house, so on. Okay. He said, so go down to them and ask them if you can get a bucket of steam. And I thought, oh shit. I just laugh at myself thinking about it now.

But anyway, I grabbed this bucket and I wandered down and I knocked on the door and this big Maori laborer guy, we’ve all seen him before. He goes, Hey. I said, hi, mate. I said, I was just having a chat with one of the boys. He told me to come down and, and get a bucket of steam. And he, he sort of went back and laughed, yeah, mate, no worries. Come on in. And he dragged me into the place and he, he, um, took me into the bathroom. He said, okay. He said, what you’re gonna have to do is you’re gonna have to turn the hot shower on and then you can collect your bucket of steam. And then he left. And I went, oh, wait, just before you go. I said, well, how am I gonna collect the bucket of steam? And how’s the steam gonna stay in the bucket? And he went and he went, mate, you wave it in, he waves it in. And he said, get one of those towels there and put the towel over the bucket. So I’ve turned the shower on full ball, the room’s full of steam. And believe it or not, this is so embarrassing. Believe it or not, I was dead set on waving this, steam the bucket, seriously, and then all of a sudden I just went, are you kidding, mate? They’re taking the piss. They’ve gotta be. They’ve gotta be. So I open the bathroom door, all this steam comes piling out and there’s about five or six laborers there having their lunch and they just pierce themselves laughing and I’m like, oh my God, I will never live that down. It was just ridiculous.

And I, I know anyone listening now. Who, who would be that stupid? I’d have to say I am dead set, putting my hand up. I can’t believe it. I was that stupid young guy that just got stitched up big time and I took the bait. I can’t believe it, but we all know we don’t. We all know times have definitely changed, and I do not recommend putting your apprentice through anything like hazing them in any sort of way these days. I know it was a good laugh and, and it was a good laugh and at my expense, but you definitely don’t wanna scar anyone for life. No. And bullying’s a big thing in the construction industry these days. It’s certainly not like it used to be.

Ange
Yeah, absolutely. I think these days it’s about being mindful, not hurtful, right. I read an article the other day where a qualified tradie from Melbourne was actually warning kids away from joining an apprenticeship, and that only 55.7% of those who start apprenticeships actually complete them. It’s insane, right?

Andy
Yeah, that’s interesting. Only 50% or 55%. And, and, um, let’s face it, we need more tradies out there and people just going into the TAFE system have dropped off dramatically. Um, yeah, so we, we’ve definitely gotta be looking after these guys because they are the future and we need, we need tradies to be able to help us out. But I probably wouldn’t have gone as far as saying, don’t do an apprenticeship. I mean, I know there’s some rough stories that are out there, but times have definitely changed. I mean, did the tradie actually explain why?

Ange
Well, the article went on to say that he started out as a bricky apprenticeship and he was in an environment where the team he worked with were doing drugs at lunchtime and then driving around later throughout the day.

Andy
Well, I think that’s a pretty good reason. Um, if you, if you’ve done your apprenticeship in that environment, then that’s definitely it.

Ange
Yeah. No wonder it is scarred.

Andy
Yeah, no wonder it is scarred. Okay, let’s get back into it. Qualified tradie versus an apprentice. I’ve been faced with this decision plenty of times over the years with Dr. Drip, and I think there’s a few different questions and scenarios that can help you decide on which way you want to go, but it does really depend on your business and where you wanna take the business in the future.

Ange
Yeah, I totally agree. So that said, what would be your first thought when faced with this hiring decision? Can you share your thoughts on that?

Andy
Yeah, well, we’ve gotta talk about the pros and cons of hiring a qualified tradie or, or apprentice and, and we will eventually get back in touch that, but I just wanna talk about something else first, because I think the first thing you gotta look at is what is the style of work you are doing in your business now, and what is the style of work you are doing in your business for the future? Because I believe in the different styles of work you do, there’s pros and cons for both options, and once you do these pros and cons, it’ll kind of dictate to you the right decision you need to make.

Ange
Yeah, fair enough. Because if you predominantly work with builders, I suppose, or on a building site for instance, they tend to need a lot of manpower, right? You don’t really need four qualified plumbers running around on top dollar doing what I class’s, repetitive work. It’s just too expensive. In that case, maybe you are gonna lean towards hiring an apprentice who isn’t maybe paid as much and actually doesn’t mind the repetition because for them, they’re simply learning.

Andy
Yeah, that’s exactly right. And I think a lot of construction and building companies prefer to have apprentices around because they can train them up exactly how they want them and they can get them to do the hard yacker at a cheaper price as well. And as a plumber, I’m talking about tasks like chasing. It’s not as hard as it used to be with a hammer and a chisel, but, or digging trenches. You know, all that real hard stuff that most business owners or tradies don’t wanna really have to do too much these days.

Ange
Yeah, sure. So while we’re on this topic of apprentices, maybe we should actually go through the pros and cons.

Andy
Yep, let’s do it. And I wanna put a bit of a disclaimer in here. I am a massive advocate for apprentices, especially these days, but you do need to see if it’s worthwhile for your business because they do require a bit of training and sometimes a little bit more effort from yourself.

Ange
Yeah, I’d say it’s a long game.

Andy
Exactly. And what I said, some owners like hiring apprentices because they can train ’em up to do the things their way, and they look at that as a massive benefit. But for the qualified tradies, they often don’t like to change their ways. They’ve been doing it for many years. It’s like that old saying, you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. You know where as keen apprentices, they’re real eager puppies and a lot of the times they are willing to learn. But the training takes a lot of work and you need to be patient and sometimes a very, very calm person as well.

Ange
Yes, it’s true. So with apprentices, would you agree that the exchange of your time and investment in your training makes the Apprentice stay with you longer? Like they have built a sense of loyalty to the business?

Andy
Well, I believe that in the past when you did your apprenticeship with someone, it was really the right thing to do was to, to at least do a few years and, and help that company out because

Ange
after you finish your apprenticeship.

Andy
After you finish your apprenticeship and do the right thing. But I hate to say it, unfortunately, I don’t think that is the case anymore. I just think the grass is always greener and, and, you know, things have actually changed. You know, I just don’t think people stick around for years like they used to. You know, at Dr. Drip, on average, our apprentices would stay with us around about six years or so, but two of my best apprentices and our, in our leading hand for many years, they stayed with us for 11 years, so, mm. And they were two of my best employees. If I look back on the whole 21 years at Dr. Drip, there’ve been two of my best employees. So I think, you know, Apprentices these days are chasing the dollar. Chasing the grass is greener. But there’s sometimes there’s just nothing you can really do when they’ve got their mind set on leaving.

Ange
Yeah, it’s interesting. I tend to agree, but I do think if you’re having people leave the business all the time, then people need to look internally and have a look at the culture of the business so that the business becomes that greener grass and they actually choose to stick around.

Andy
Absolutely.

Ange
So that said, are there any other considerations to make when you are hiring an apprentice?

Andy
Yeah, there is. When you hire an apprentice these days, um, I know here in New South Wales you’ve gotta go through the app apprenticeship board and you have an interview and you know, there’s a lot of stuff that needs to be done. So it does take a little bit more time for the business owner to set up an apprentice and the reason why we go to this app, apprenticeship board is it’s meant to be good for the apprentice and it’s meant to be good for the business owner as well. And over the years, these boards have been great. But listen, at the end of the day, I mean, we had one guy that just, he just wasn’t the right fit. So they come in and help with a bit of mediation, but they can’t do much and a lot of these apprentices, when they join you, they’re meant to stay for the full term. But if someone wants to leave that just wanna leave and, and I felt like sometimes a, yet again, us business owners, I’m talking to the apprenticeship board and I’m like, well, this is the situation and they’re trying to fix it. And I like it, but as a business owner, that’s not fair. Like here I am rolling out the red carpet, trying to fix all the issues. They’re giving me nothing. They just wanna leave. And you guys are like, well, there’s nothing we can do. So I don’t know. I was a bit annoyed about it, to be honest.

Ange
Well, I would say the app apprenticeship board is actually mainly set up to protect the Apprentice because their class has been young and I can imagine back in the day. Mm. That some business owners perhaps really took advantage of the apprentices. So they’re kind of being placed in a position of trust. It’s like a parent, you know, a guardian who’s not a parent who actually understands the industry. So I, I, I believe they have their place. But I hear what you are saying. From a business owner perspective, it can get challenging when perhaps that apprentice is going MIA and not gonna TAFE, for instance, but that’s on your shoulders to follow them up. Yeah. The apprenticeship board doesn’t do that, do they?

Andy
No, no. That’s right. And um, and that’s where I had a, a, a bit of a challenge with them, but you’re exactly right. The reason they’ll probably board in was to look after the apprentices. But another thing to consider for the business owners and why apprenticeships are so good is there’s a hell of a lot of incentives around at the moment, aren’t they? They’re really trying to ramp it up so we can get more apprentices out there working.

Ange
Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, we as an industry want more apprentices to come through, don’t we? So I actually was reading about this because there is a new incentive just kicked in. It actually started in July of 2022. So let me just read it to you. It says that if you are on the list, employers get a wage subsidy of around 10% of wages for the first and second year apprentices and 5% of wages for third year apprentices. And then it goes on to say, if you are not on the list, then employers get reimbursed 1,750 for a full-time apprentice, or 875 each installment for a part-time apprentice. I know that’s a lot of detail, but the short of it is, Check it out online. There are some great benefits to you as a trade business owner if you choose that taking on an apprentice is the right thing to do?

Andy
Yeah, it’s no, you know, we always look back and it’s not as good as what it was, but you know what? It’s better than a kick in the head. Right. So, um,

Ange
I think anything’s better than that. Right?

Andy
Exactly. Exactly.

Ange
So talking about style of work, you raised this earlier, Andy, if you worked in service or maintenance style, Work like strata, real estate and residential customers, would you lean one way or the other when hiring an apprentice or qualified tradie?

Andy
Yeah, I mean, it really does depend on your business goals and, and the way you know where you are taking the business. But I do think in a service and a maintenance style sort of business. Um, you normally only have one person turn up to a job, and if you’re doing small jobs and you don’t need two people, then it’s probably better to have a qualified person there. A lot of the time they’re more mature. They’re, they’re older, they’ve been around for a while, they know what needs to be done, and sometimes customers do look at it and go, why are there two people here? I’m paying for two people, and instead said, this is just a one person job.

Ange
I definitely would say, um, something to think about is if you need that person to actually be making money or profit for your business immediately. Yeah. Because that’s when you’re going to need a qualified tradesman, because once you’ve trained them your way, you have an expectation that you can class ’em as billable time, whereas you’ve gotta carry an apprentice.

Andy
Again, it’s dependent on the business and its goals, but I do think in a service and maintenance style business that qualified trades are easier to work with. Firstly, when you are doing this kind of work, you’re typically only sending one person out for each job, and the price of the job is based on that one person’s labor. So if you’re hiring an apprentice, a lot of the time you’re not meant to send them out to a job on their own because they don’t have the technical skills to do it by themselves.

Ange
Yeah.

Andy
Or you’re either increasing your pricing to accommodate the extra labor for the apprentice, and then all of a sudden the customer’s copying a different price.

Ange
Right. I guess if the point was trying to lighten your load because you have too much work,

Andy
Which is a good problem to have.

Ange
Yes, then what you are really after is that qualified tradie to take on that overflow work and make profit for you almost immediately.

Andy
Yeah, good point. I think another thing to add here is that whilst yes, the apprentices don’t have the technical skills just yet, I also don’t think the young guys have the communication skills that maybe once we all did. I mean, I don’t know. It just seems a little bit like some of these younger guys, not all of them, not all of them, but some of the younger guys, they’ve just got their face stuck in their phone all day, every day, and they’re grown up texting each other and using social media. And they’ve just lost that ability to have a really good conversation with a stranger face-to-face.

Ange
Yeah, you’re not wrong. I reckon our kids could spend twenty four seven playing around on their phones and iPads if they could.

Andy
Yeah. It’s ridiculous. I feel like throwing them in the bin some days, the phones that is not the kids.

Ange
Seriously. It’s crazy how tech savvy the new generations are though, compared to when we were kids because that stuff just didn’t exist.

Andy
Yeah, no it didn’t. And instead of sitting inside and your phones are out in the yard tinkering with their bikes, building forts, climbing trees. Mm-hmm. We knew you had to come home when the street lights came on. Geez. We’re sounding old now, huh?

Ange
Exactly.

Andy
So when I became a tradie, I kind of already had some technical skills. You know, like my old man was a mechanic and I used to change the oil and the oil filters and do spark plugs and do all these kinds of things and fix our bikes. But the kids these days, You know they have a problem with their bike and the chain falls off and they’re like, ah, my bike’s screwed. I need a new bike, baby.

Ange
That might be going too far, but hey, you’re not wrong. I know we’re generalizing, but the younger generation do lack decision making. That decision process. It’s like we have to teach them how to think.

Andy
Yeah, I agree. They just need to be taught and, and that’s it. And you can teach them. They’re very teachable, there’s no doubt about that. But you know, when you have a tradie that’s qualified, he walks into a customer’s house, they need to take the customer through specific sales sort of process, go over the job and say the right things at the right times, and make sure the customer feels the confidence that this tradie is oozing. You know, and a lot of the times the customer’s gotta go, this person is the right person to do the job. And if you’re sending a tradie who lacks these communication skills, And they’re staring at their boots in there. Boy, Mr. Jones. There you go. Well, the customer really isn’t willing to go ahead with the work they might do at the first initial job they called you for because they’ve taken the day off. But if you are ever looking at upselling and cross-selling, you have Buckley’s and there’s probably a lot of work you missed out on.

Ange
Yeah, you definitely don’t want that to happen. It means, uh, you’ve missed out on repeat work. So this is the benefit of mature age apprentices. Something I know that you like doing in Dr. Drip. Right?

Andy
Yeah, I think in Dr. Drip, you know, over the years it changed. When I first started, it was all about hiring tradies, you know, cause that’s what I needed. And then as the business grew, you know, we needed someone digging holes and doing other stuff. Let’s get a few apprentices. And then we got back to tradies and all of a sudden it’s like, oh, the apprentices are hard work. We’ll just get tradies. But then it sort of flipped again and it was hard to get good tradies. And it’s like, well, let’s get apprentices. Some of my best tradies have been apprentices, and I flipped it on its head again, but I didn’t go for young apprentices. We went for mature age apprentices, you know, guys that even had degrees, you know, 25, 28, 30, and these guys are just so confident and they’ve been in the workforce for a long time, and they just had that worldly experience and they were really good for us.

Ange
Yeah, their communication skills are certainly stronger, which is important when you’re face-to-face with customers.

Andy
Yeah, you’re still not meant to leave them to complete work on their own. No, but um, you know, they do cost a little bit more than a young apprentice, but you know what? I really like the mature apprentices and they were absolute killers for us, and I thought it was a really good option. For what we needed in Dr. Drip, which was a service-based business.

Ange
Yeah. So, or perhaps for a service-based business or for maintenance style work specifically, you might prefer to hire a qualified tradie so that you can start making money almost immediately. We talked about this before. Yeah. You just have to train the new recruit to follow your processes and pretty much the way they go.

Andy
Yeah. Uh, it’s just easier said than done at the moment, isn’t, I know a lot. Um, all around Australia are talking about, you know, it’s just so hard to get decent qualified tradies at the moment. And, um, if you do find a decent qualified tradie, oh my god, they are asking for absolute massive bucks. Sign on bonuses. Massages. Haircuts are tripled away every year. You name it, they want it. And you know what? There’s a hell of a lot of businesses out there right now that are actually giving that to them. So that’s what’s driving the market into this scenario where everyone’s on top dollars getting all the bills and whistles.

Ange
Yeah, so sometimes you can’t compete with that though, right? So maybe you do need to look at hiring an apprentice, then all you need to do is make a few changes to how you operate, though, on a day-to-day basis.

Andy
Yeah, exactly. If you can’t compete with these big dollars, then maybe hiring an apprentice is the right thing for you. But you just gotta realize that when you are on site, you’d still need to be charging the apprentice out at the right amount of money. At the very, very minimum just to cover their costs. And, and the thing with apprentices as well, you know, depending on the structure, they either have one day off a week or they have a week off a month and right. These are these other big overheads that a lot of people just don’t take into account. And if you have got them in their truck and they’re working by themselves, well that’s a truck off the road too for a day, a week or a week, a month. And you know, there’s a lot of stuff that comes in with that and obviously there’s a lot of onsite training that you need to do when you have an apprentice as well.

Ange
Yeah. I suppose this decision about whether you employ an apprentice versus a tradie will also depend on your business structure, like whether you’re a one man band right now versus whether you have a larger existing team. If it’s just you in the business, an apprentice might be considered the smarter first hire in terms of wages, perhaps cuz they’re cheaper, but it’s maybe not so smart in terms of having someone else make money straight away for you and that takes a load off you, right? Because it’s billable time is really important for a trade business.

Andy
And if you’ve already got a larger team and apprentice might be considered the smart high because they can be paired up with someone else on the team or it might not, because you might be ready to add another truck on the road for growth. So it might be better to have a tradie.

Ange
Yeah. Wow. Lots to think about.

Andy
Oh, there’s so much to think about when you go through this.

Ange
So, Let me just summarize perhaps what came out then. If you can get a top qualified tradie and pay them good money and they’re amazing from the start, that’s great because they’re confident, they’re independent, they’re billable from the start, and they’re gonna help make profit immediately. But they do cost a bit more in terms of wages and perhaps won’t change their ways to follow your systems, and it could cause you a bit of grief when you are trying to build a strong culture.

Andy
And for apprentices, you can train them how you want. They’re fresh phased, and perhaps ready to get stuck into the industry, and their wages are that little bit cheaper. But training them does take time. Their communication skills might need some work. And although you can charge your rate to coop their cost. It will take a few years before they can make a real true profit for you where they are doing jobs on their own. You can only hope the investment of your time will pay off with them staying long-term within your business and you can develop them into a leading hand with far greater responsibilities. It’s a bit of a long game and, and that’s how it worked for us and our leading hand.

Ange
Yeah. That’s, uh, that was pretty full on. Hey. Yes. But we did it. So now I dare say the listeners that are faced with this dilemma are now armed with a few considerations, I suppose, to help make that right decision.

Andy
Yeah, and that’s it. And, and as we said from the start, there’s no clean cut. You’ve gotta look at your business, the type of work that you do, and make the decision that’s right for you. And as we all know, there’s pros and cons in everything but make sure you just make the right decision for you and your business. So that’s a big hell yeah. Another tradie toolbox question done and dusted, baby. And I’d say that that’s about a wrap for this week’s episode as well. So you know what? We will catch you all next week.

Ange
Yeah, good. But hold on, before we go, if anyone out there listening has a question for us, for the toolbox that we can chat about, then feel free to email through your question to podcast@lifestyletradie.com.au.

Andy
Absolutely. We would love to hear from you, and if you have any questions for me specifically or are interested in elevating your trade business, let’s jump on a strategy session call and we can come up with an action plan together. Simply click on the link in the show notes or head to lifestyletradie.com.au to book it in.

Ange
Yeah, you know what? We’ve both been helping trade business owners for over 13 years and would love to help you too. How about you stick around and listen to what some of our members have to say. See you next week.

Member’s Testimony
Don’t wait. These guys are very honest and open. They share so much information personally, as well as, um, business. Uh, it’s a holistic approach to life, not just, uh, how to run your plumbing business.

Yeah, definitely join Lifestyle Tradie. The amount of support and knowledge which is within the program is valuable. Um, the other thing is, The community that Lifestyle Tradie has developed is amazing. There’s been so many times where I’ve learned on the community’s advice, where we’ve had certain issues that we’ve been able to bring up in our, you know, Facebook group. You get plenty of answers that you can actually action. You don’t know what you don’t know.

Lifestyle Tradie has a huge sense of community, just a great group of people just hanging out. Helping everyone out and they help you out. Just hanging out after the events is always fun as well. Some great speakers come along and definitely always, always learning stuff from every event we go to.

Do it. Like don’t hesitate every year that you put it off, there’s just an extra year that you lose. You don’t get this time back. That’s one thing that we can never buy is time, so you need help, get it.