-17% to 48% Profit: MSJ Plumbing’s Transformation Story

Andy
If you’ve ever wondered how to go from chaos to control and still have time for two uninterrupted month-long holidays within a year, then this episode is packed with practical strategies you can take straight into your own business. Let’s get into it.

You are listening to The Tradie Show. This is the podcast for trade business and contracting bosses like you who wanna lead with confidence, make more profit and create a better lifestyle. 

Ange
We’re your hosts, Andy and Angela Smith, husband & wife team and co-founders of Lifestyle Tradie. Are you ready to have some fun?

Andy
Hell yeah! All right. Let’s cut to the chase. When was the last time your business worked for you instead of running you into the ground? If you are sitting there thinking, yep, that’s me, then we need to talk. I’m Andy Smith and I’ve been where you are. Long hours, cashflow nightmares, no control. Does any of these sound familiar? But here’s the thing, you don’t have to keep living like this. There’s a way out, and it starts with a game plan call. It’s just 10 minutes. We’re going to identify the bottlenecks holding your business back and map out a clear, straightforward plan to get you moving forward. Think of it as your shortcut to make more profit, more control, and more time to actually enjoy your life. And if you are stuck with cashflow issues, team headaches, or just feel like you’re drowning in endless work, well guess what? I’ve got you back. So here’s what you need to do. Head to lifestyletradie.com.au. Hit the big green Gameplan Call button, or just scroll down on your phone. Listen, if a 10 minute call could save you hours of headaches, why wouldn’t you take it? Make the move. Let’s turn things around and get your business working for you, not against you. Hell yeah!

Ange
So Matt and Sonia, welcome to The Tradie Show. It’s so good to have you both with us here today.

Sonia
Thanks guys. We appreciate the opportunity.

Matt
Happy to be. 

Andy
Yeah, you guys are absolute legends. I’m very excited about this episode.

Ange
Okay, so let’s start with a big one. How did MSJ Plumbing actually get started? I’ve heard it involves one ute, a lot of word of mouth work, and Matt having a bit of a problem about being told what to do, perhaps. 

Andy
Ah, that doesn’t surprise me. 

Ange
No, not at all. 

Matt
I don’t know. So, yeah, MSJ Plumbing was founded with a simple idea to build a business on independence, hard work and commitment to doing the right thing, the right way. Back in the early days, I wasn’t exactly cut out for being told what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. The frustration, along with a few bad moods and a lack of passion for my work at the time, made me realize something needed to change. So one day I was out fishing with one of my mates. I completed my apprenticeship with him and then I went along to work for him. But he sort of said to me at one point, mate, what are you doing? Like if you hate going to work, stop, go and work for yourself. And it was a fair fishing trip. So it took, took a bit, but he ended up convincing me to, to have a crack and go out and do it on my own. So yeah, I made a phone call and I threw the TL in, and then I started subcontracting under MSJ Plumbing. So MSJ obviously stands for Matt and Sonia Jones. So that was my subcontracting name. And then it ended up just sticking and we couldn’t change it after that, so it just stayed as it was. 

Ange
So hearing that. If we fast forward now, how many years have you been in business and what style of work do you do and what size is the team? 

Matt
Uh, so we’ve been in business for 10 years now. The team at the moment is about 13 or 14 of us. We do a lot of maintenance and that’s from standard mom and dads through to contracted maintenance work with aged care facilities and real estates and so on, so forth. Uh, we do a lot of high-end big builds. We don’t do a lot of the smaller builds. We do a lot of high-end big builds, and we do a lot of commercial maintenance and home search treatment plants. 

Ange
Amazing. I love the diversity of the style of work that you do. I think that’s fantastic. So, Sonia, I wanna ask you a question. Can you share what made you join the business and when did you do that? Or why did you do that? 

Sonia
I joined, well, I, I’d been part of the business since the very beginning, but just played a background role. So I had a full-time job in our local government, but I’d look after the paperwork, invoicing, job bookings. All of that in my lunch breaks, I’d race out to the car, sit in the car with the aircon, eat a sandwich and do what I could and then racing home afterwards from school pickup and continuing on. And that often meant that the kids would be falling asleep at home. And hence where Andy mentioned the baked beans. Like our go-to dinner was toast or baked beans for the kids ’cause it was quick. It was easy. They were getting something to eat and we could keep going ’cause we’d be working till all hours of the night to get the paperwork done. And that’s when we realized something had to give. So I did bring in some part-time help here and there, but it just wasn’t enough and I really needed to be in, we could have somebody help with job bookings and scheduling, but we really needed more help with the background running. So we made the decision that I would give up my government role, but for me, it’s not like your typical tradie wife where the wife always comes in and does it, that was my passion, my role before I left local government was running an office type environment, so I was used to that. Whilst it was clear that Matt was and still is an excellent tradesman, he couldn’t run the back end of it, so I needed to handle that sort of stuff. Looking back, it was the best decision that we did make, uh, not just for the business, but for us family and personally too. I remember our daughter’s grade one teacher at the time, she said to me, I’d never normally say this to any parent, but I got along really well with her. But she said, honestly, you made the best decision ’cause she had noticed a huge difference in our daughter at school because she was suffering, like with the sleep or the, the attention from us and after I gave up, I was, was just more available to her and to our son.

Ange
That’s such an important sentence actually. I think so many trade businesses have a husband and wife team that end up working inside the business. To your point, either she’s doing it externally while she’s working full time and she’s table talking and doing what you do, sitting at a car or lunch break, which is amazing now perhaps coming into the business. And when you have children, it’s incredibly impactful and this balancing act is tricky. Being on the tools versus being in the office must go hand in hand. This workflow that we talk about has to be seamless, and this is the beauty that clearly works so well between you and Matt with you taking ownership of what happens in the office and ensuring that the flow happens well out of the tools.

Andy
Yeah, it’s, it’s a great story and I love how that all happened, but let’s sort of dive back into those early years. So that did sound like a real grind. So I’d love to dive a bit deeper about what the biggest challenges back then were for you and, and how you got through them. 

Matt
Yeah. The early years were definitely a grind. Uh, one of the biggest challenges was trying to do everything ourselves, obviously. I was on the tools all day, creating jobs all night. Doing invoices at night. Sonia was juggling her job, juggling kids, marketing, hr, anything to do with the business in whatever time she could find that led to cashflow hurdles. We didn’t take payment on completion back in those days, so I wrote everything down on a yellow job card that sat on the front seat of the ute and got transferred around and eventually made it back into the house, and then maybe it got sent and maybe it got lost, and you know, so and so forth. So. That was a big issue. Um, but continue, obviously work that came from word of mouth at the time was up and down so you, one day I’d have 15 jobs. The next day I might only start midday with two jobs and then end up working till night anyway, so it was a bit of a peak and trough. But yeah, we saw the built up a loyal customer base and Sonia came into the office and that gave us a bit of room to grow. Looking back, the grind was tough, but it built the foundations for what the business is now. And I’ll tell you what, it taught us to work hard.

Andy
Yeah. Bloody, there’s no doubt about that. 

Ange
I think every tradie knows how to work hard, don’t they? So can you tell me if there was actually a moment where you think things actually shifted? Like when you started going, oh my gosh, hang on, we’re actually getting somewhere now. 

Matt
Yeah, that definitely was, uh, in the beginning it felt like we were just putting our heads down and grinding every day. But the turning point was when we were able to move from working out of an insufficient vehicle setup and to having a proper setup, getting our first business loan and a couple of staff on board, and then Sonia coming over full time. That was the turning point, uh, where we went, shit, we actually drove a business. 

Sonia
And another part, like a big shift, was when we started to get repeat customers calling us back. So not just for emergencies, but because they trusted us to handle their ongoing work. We actually still have, one of our very first big clients is now a massive, still a massive client of ours today. But, well that was huge for us because it meant that we weren’t surviving day to day and week to week, but we were building something that was actually sustainable for the business. Um, we still remember. Finishing the week thinking bills are covered, the team’s looked after, the phone’s still ringing, and that’s when we knew that we were on the right track and could actually start planning for the future and keeping our heads above water.

Andy
That’s incredible. I, I just wanna touch on, at the start of this episode, you talked about the style of work you’re doing now. Can we talk about the style of work you’re doing in the early days? Like were you still doing very similar things? Obviously your business structure changed a bit as you, as you grew, but were you still doing the same style of work?

Matt
I was pretty lucky. Halfway through my apprenticeship, I started my apprenticeship as a maintenance plumber with a couple of old guys that were ruthless. Then I changed my apprenticeship midway through to a construction company. So when I did come in on my own, I had knowledge in both fields of not only just maintenance, but rural maintenance. And then not only construction, but also rural construction, city construction. So that continued on to when I did run our own business, we did promote. I used to have a mantra, if water ran through it, I’d do it. And literally that’s how it was. It wouldn’t matter what it was. If it had water in it, I could do it or I’d find a way to do it. 

Sonia
It was predominantly maintenance.

Matt
It was predominantly maintenance back then. 

Sonia
Because we were a single man and yeah. 

Matt
Maintenance septic systems. But yeah, predominantly I did gear it to go just to maintenance and then that slowly shifted over the years. 

Andy
And Lifestyle Tradie, We talk a lot about A, B, C, and D customers and getting your custom mix right. I know there’s been a stage there for you guys where you’ve done more and more building over the years and you’ve made money, but you’ve definitely lost money. Can you talk a bit about the building sector and how that was working? ‘Cause there’s a lot of people at the moment saying, get out of the building sector. There’s no money in it. But that’s not exactly true. Can you give me a bit of a rundown of where you are at Matt, in regards to building homes or renovations and working with builders and what you’ve seen along the way?

Matt
Yeah, absolutely. So I never had an A, B, or C client. It always was. If you paid my bill, I didn’t care who you were or what you were, I’d do your work. But that’s eventually, that has changed as time’s gone on. Yeah, we do a lot of builds now. A lot of high end builds. There’s definitely good and bad to the building industry and good and bad to different builders. For instance, some of our, our top guys that we’re working for at the moment, we make plenty of money out of. They’re well organized. They’re well priced. The builders themselves are great blokes that understand how to run a business. 

Andy
Mm. 

Matt
And they’re not there to screw you. So like there’s, I just got off the phone to a builder the other day about a job that we’ve got going at the moment. It’s run over time due to inclement weather, due to their contractor’s slowing us down. 

Andy
Yes. 

Matt
He turned around and said, mate, I don’t wanna see you not making money on that, so just let me know what the cost is.

Andy
Wow, that’s incredible.

Matt
Then on the other hand, I’ve got numerous sets of plans sitting here, numerous sets of purchase orders sitting here, and if you actually take the time to calculate the purchase order cost between each stage of the build, they’ll send you three to four different purchase orders, one for a drone, one for a roughing. Might get one for Downpipes and then you’ll get one for fit off. Now, if you go through and calculate all those costs, including GST, you’ll see that most of the spec home builders now want you doing a house for nine to $10,000.

Andy
Woo.

Matt
Now at nine to 10 grand, that’s fucking highway robbery. Like you’re not doing a job for that.

Ange
No way.

Matt
If you go back and calculate the cost to do an under slab, you’ve got. $1,500 in machine hire, you’ve got 12 to $1,500 in material, $700 in gravel. I’m not putting a drain in the ground for fucking 400 bucks like it’s a joke. No way. So those types of builders, it’s impossible for you to run a successful business based on those figures. Even if you’re doing 600 of ’em a year, that’s just 600 times that you are losing money doing a job. So it doesn’t even work on turnover. 

Andy
Yeah, it’s absolutely crazy, isn’t it? And some of these guys will say, well, we’ll get you then. We’ve looked at your three prices. We’ll get you just to do the drainage. We won’t. And then they’ll bring the cheapest person for this and the cheapest person from that. And then it’s just an absolute race to the bottom, isn’t it?

Matt
Oh, absolutely.

Andy
Yeah. What you are saying is that, the biggest challenge I see out there is people think being busy is good and you’re making money. Now, you might as well have no work going broke and sitting on the beach, right? Yeah. And this is where people need to understand their numbers enough to understand what’s actually profitable or not, because there’s a real divide at the moment with builders and there’s a real push to get everything done for cheaper and cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. Trade business owners that don’t know better are falling for the trap and it’s absolutely killing them. Now, I just wanna say on a builder level, there’s a lot of builders that have had challenging years as well. So I’m not here picking on builders, but what I am trying to say here, like anything in this life, is you got your high end people and your low end people. If you’re playing with these low end people, it’s a bit of a race to the bottom. Like you said earlier, Matt, if you’re playing with these high-end guys that understand what it costs and you’ve built this incredible relationship and they’re highly organized and everything goes to plan, you can make good money and they are happy for you ’cause their life has made their life easier and they’ve made good money as well. So it’s a win-win, right? 

Matt
It is. It is. When you play, a lot of people want to go for the spec home companies because it’s easier work. Yeah. When you go to the high end guys, you’ve gotta deliver a high end of service. So a lot of it comes back to us as well. Like the way the job gets scheduled, the way the job, the phone gets answered, the way that the boys show up, the work that the boys are doing. It all is hard work compared to rolling into a spec home. Fresh site, clean cut pad, and you’re away. People get caught in that trap that, oh, it’s, it’s a lot easier doing this than it is doing like high end homes. Yeah, it is, but the money’s a fucking third of what you’re gonna make outta doing a high-end job. You’ve just gotta put a bit of grid into it and get it done. 

Sonia
Our staff also like that with the high-end builders that not every day is the same day and not every build’s the same. Literally everyone they walk into is different. Whereas we’ve got some guys that have done the spec home before and they’ve had three sets of blends that it’s like, righto, we’re doing house A today or house B, house C. It’s the same thing over and over again. Whereas here, they enjoy that challenge of. 

Matt
Everything’s architecturally designed, so nothing’s the same.

Andy
Yeah, yeah. 

Ange
And I think financially, when you actually look at your numbers, that doing a lot of this work, you’re not actually breaking even. They’re actually going backwards. So as long as they really understand their finances, they’ll know which clients to actually say yes to with respect to the work. 

Andy
I think the big thing here is that you’re smashing out these home builds. You feel good ’cause you’re getting shit done. And at the end of the day, it’s at the end of the financial year. You’re looking at your profit margins and you’re not sitting pretty. You need to make a change. But now all of a sudden, people have built their whole business around these C and D customers, and they’re too scared to make the change. Now I remember back in the early days, guys, and you had a very good chat with me, and you were sitting at negative 17%. Now, obviously that has completely flipped on its head and you guys are absolutely smoking it now, and I’m not gonna say the margin, but you are smoking it now. It’s such an amazing change. How did you make that flick, that switch from being broke, having cash flow issues, everything being a problem to where you are today?

Matt
Honestly, it came down to finally understanding our numbers and making some hard changes. Back in the day, running around $99 an hour, no call out fee. I thought I was killing it. To earn more, I’d just push harder and get more work done. As we just stated before, more work does not mean more money. There’d be days where I’d do 15 jobs in the day.

Andy
Wow.

Matt
But the truth was, no matter how hard I worked, we still weren’t making any money. 

Ange
No. 

Matt
So what we’ve since done is slow down, get smarter. We obviously increased our rates by quite a fair amount. Uh, introduced a service call and moved to a bundled pricing structure. Now all of that has then turned into upfront pricing with clients and no hidden fees. And once the job’s done, we invoice on the spot and take payment. It’s transparent, professional, and it means a team isn’t rushing through jobs just to make the numbers work. 

Sonia
We’re also more disciplined on our financial side. So we’ve listened to Andy for many years up on stage. Know your numbers. Yeah. Um, so, that drilled into our head, and that was something that we’d said to our accountant. We want to know our numbers. So I take care of all the bookkeeping, and that means I have complete visibility over our entire financial state. So I run reports weekly. We have regular meetings with our accountant every quarter to go through the bass, but I’m also on the phone with her every single month. Matt runs a spreadsheet that we track individual jobs to know whether we’ve made or lost money. He does need to get better at updating it sometimes, but, uh, the big thing is making sure that we are actually understanding what the numbers are telling us, not just I can run a P&L and yeah, that looks great, but we actually understand and we know the numbers that we’re looking at now, and that’s the difference between losing money and building a profitable business. You don’t know what you don’t know. 

Andy
Yeah, that is a hundred percent. And Matt touched on the hourly rate and you know, it’s not our job or anyone’s job to tell any business owner out there what you should or you shouldn’t charge. But the fact is, when you’ve got so many businesses struggling with these massive issues, it normally comes down to not charging enough. And if you’re not charging enough. You are always gonna be banging your head against a brick wall. But the other thing obviously that you guys did working with Lifestyle Tradie through the years is not only get your numbers right, but the whole structure of your business changed. Everything had a place, everything had a way, everything was done the same way, the whole way through. And you are looking at these builders or any of the work you are doing, and at the end of the job you could actually look at figures that told you if you made money or not. And that was really surprising, you were saying, because there were jobs there where you thought you were crushing it, but you just weren’t.

Matt
Yeah. Well that comes down to, we also had to tighten up a lot on efficiencies in the field. So the team knows the timeframes that they should be aiming for on the job. Now, uh, we source materials from suppliers who look after us best. All the changes between suppliers being told, how many hours they’ve got on the job, checking the jobs over. 

Sonia
Correct staff. 

Matt
Doing the correct stuff, doing the correct job, so on and so forth. That’s completely transformed the margins just on itself.

Andy
Yeah, a hundred percent. 

Ange
I think one of the things you just said then, Matt, is really important to highlight, which is about efficiency in time. I find having conversations with trade business owners all the time, they’re really good at watching what is tangible or the materials that you can touch and feel, and in managing any particular jobs, they lose sight of the fact that time is money and therefore it gets away from you really quickly. When you say bring in a contractor and you pay them a set fee for the day, and you just go, oh, done. You’re not watching the time that they’re using and hence they, you know, end up blowing out numbers. 

Matt
Time was a really big thing on our part. Like, I would never give anyone a time to finish something, so I, I would just say, righto mate. Go do this job. And without them understanding how much time he allowed me, they’d just kick the candy down the road, blow the day, and go, yep, job’s done. No worries. Like nowadays, I say, right mate, you’ve got four hours to get that job done. If there’s a problem, let me know, but you should be done in four hours. I might have six hours of quoted time on that job, but I don’t want them taking six hours or sure as shit, don’t want ’em taking seven hours. I want ’em to take four hours. And you don’t have to increase your hourly rate. You don’t have to. The gun toward. All you’ve gotta do is, be efficient, get the job done faster, and we make a better margin.

Ange
And understand your financials and communicate that with clarity to your team so that they know how to ensure that they’re meeting your expectations as an employer. So what I love about this conversation is we’re actually talking about processes. We’re talking about systems, we’re talking about ensuring that we all follow the process, the flow of a job. I’ve heard you often say both of you, Matt and Sonia, that they have become the backbone of your business. What’s one that has actually made perhaps the biggest difference in your opinion?

Sonia
Everyone talks about job management systems. We’ve had a couple over the years for many, many years now, but the biggest system shift for us was last year we changed to ServiceM8, so we’ve gone from high end job management systems. And some used to think ServiceM8 was down towards the bottom, but it’s changed over the years and last year we made that change and that’s, that’s been the game changer. The ease of use is just for our office staff, for our field staff. The communication with our clients has improved massively. We can now keep them up to date in real time with bookings, inquiries, photos, job progress, and completions. A lot of other systems we found didn’t make field and office and client communication that seamless. 

Andy
Yeah, ServiceM8 definitely is a game changer. It’s probably the leader of the pack these days, there’s no doubt about that. The thing that I’m hearing out there in the market though is it’s all well and good to have this great system and the office running it so well, and this was the same with Dr. Drip in the years. We had to drive very, very hard to make sure our staff did it all the right way. How was that getting your staff to do it the right way? ’cause people are saying it can’t be done and I’m like, it can be done. There’s many people doing it.

Sonia
The biggest thing is the why. Everyone wants to understand why. So we’ve, we’ve implemented systems over the years and we try to say, okay, yep, go and do this, or you’ve gotta do that and give us our photos, and it would just fall on deaf ears and tell the staff the reason why we need things. So we need your before and after photos. Because remember this job where the client said this and you said that, we had no proof. Or it might be that we’ve had a house get flooded before, and the reason it flooded was because the system wasn’t followed. Like they didn’t read through exactly what the job was, it had to be done. With clients paying and things like that. Like we, we give our staff now the reason why and they’re like, okay, I really don’t like that I have to do this, but I understand why. I see why you want me to do it. It makes it a lot easier. 

Matt
We’ve filtered a few of the boys through the workshop, so they’ve sat downstairs with the office girls to see what they do, how they do it, why they have to do it, and then why the boys have to do it. And they all go, ah, fuck that. I’m not doing that job well, that’s hard, that’s a hard job. And they’re even on my end, like I sit upstairs reading jobs and putting out quotes and so on, so forth. And the same questions that the staff ask me when they’re doing a job is what I need from them when I’m looking at a job. Yeah. So if I stop giving it to ’em, they start ringing up a whingeing and then I go, oh mate, you didn’t gimme mine. Yeah. So how am I meant to know what I’m doing when you didn’t give me what you need to know what you are doing? So all of that’s come into play, they just understand now that you get a callback and I turn around and say, mate, I’m not paying you for that callback. And you go, well, how do you know it was a callback? And I go, I don’t ’cause you didn’t put any fucking photos on there. Yeah. If you had off, we’d know it’s not a callback. Now they sort of just understand it on layman’s terms and not just another job that the office staff are giving them to do. So they tend to, I mean, at the moment particularly, they tend to be pretty good. They’re all following fairly well. 

Andy
It’s the old saying, don’t blame them, train them, but that is why it is just so important for anyone. There’s not many staff members that sit there on a day to day and go, how can I fuck my boss up? Like they’re not sitting there saying that. Right. And if they are, they’re probably not around.

Matt
Sure.

Andy
Well, maybe there’s a couple. 

Ange
It definitely comes back to this connection of ensuring your team has clarity around the expectations from you as an employer. So you have to start there first. You’ve gotta start with why am I even doing this from a process perspective? Why is it important internally and therefore how does it affect the flow of a job between the office and the team? So now that you guys have the size of team that you have, we all know that culture has become a really important part of business. How do you guys keep your crew engaged and on the same page? 

Andy
Imagine it’s a year from now, you wake up, the sun’s out and instead of rushing out the door stressed, you are taking your time and enjoying your coffee. Your business is running smoothly, your cash flow is steady, and your weekends are actually yours. Sounds good, doesn’t it? But if you like most tradies I’ve met, that feels miles away from reality right now. I’m Andy Smith, and I know the grind. I know the late nights, the endless stress and the feeling that your business owns you, not the other way round. But I also know what it takes to turn that around, and I want to show you. Let’s jump on a game plan call. It’s just 10 minutes. We’re gonna cut through the noise, figure out what’s holding you back, and build a clear roadmap to get you to that better place. So go to lifestyletradie.com.au. Tap the Gameplan Call button or scroll down and lock in a time that suits. You are closer than you think to building the business you’ve always wanted. One core can change everything. Let’s make sure that 2025 isn’t just another year of struggling, but the year that everything clicks, let’s make it happen. 

Matt
Well, this is a good one for us. Culture comes down to the type of person that you’re employing? Yes. So when I’m hiring, last thing I look at is how fucking good a plumber they think they’re, yeah. Well that’s the last thing on my mind. Skills can be taught that being a good person and having a good attitude can’t be taught. So I go off a gut feel how many jobs they’ve had, what their interests are outside of work. Even down to what their parents do for work. Then I think to myself, could I go and hang out with this person? 

Andy
Yeah. 

Matt
And if the answer’s yes, then I know they’ll fit the team. So once they’re on board, keeping the culture strong, fairly easy because they all have the same traits as all the guys that we employ.

Sonia
For that, I make sure that we do fortnightly toolbox meetings where we have breakfast, we have drinks, they, they all come in and have a chance to catch up with each other. We make time for three or four staff functions each year, but things like a night out, uh, the Golf Range Rodeo dinner or something at our house casually. We have some of our staff who will come by on a weekend to ride motorbikes and things like that. 

Matt
So the way we see it is if people genuinely like each other and there’s an element of friendship there, then everyone puts in more effort to look after the team and the culture in the team and the company. 

Ange
But it’s clearly based on values and morals.

Matt
Yeah. Like I said before, we can make anyone into a decent plumber, but we can’t make you into a good person. So we really strive for employing good people that get along with that, get along with us. Like if they can’t get along with me in an interview and I think they’re completely different to me. Though I won’t even give ’em a fucking chance.

Andy
Yeah, yeah.

Matt
They don’t bring ’em in. 

Andy
Yeah. And that’s the way to go, mate. There’s no doubt about it. But it’s really interesting ’cause over the years, you know, a lot of us, especially people who have been in business for a long time, we’ve had staff come and we’ve had staff go. We’ve had staff that were brilliant one day and they’ll just be an absolute game changer. And then all of a sudden, whatever’s going on in their world, they’re not so brilliant anymore. They still think they’re brilliant, but they’re not so brilliant anymore. So I know you guys have had to make some tough calls along the way as well. What experiences have taught you about leadership? 

Matt
Yeah. We definitely have had to make some tough calls over the years. What it’s taught me is probably that hanging onto the wrong person for too long does more damage than letting them go. Yes, at first it’s, it’s uncomfortable. You’re worried about workload, the team, or just not wanting to be made out to be the bad guy. But I’ve learned that if someone doesn’t align with the values of the company and the values of us, then they drag the culture down. Keeping them for a long period of time only hurts and damages culture and the reputation of the business. So leadership isn’t about pleasing everyone. It’s about protecting the team and the business so that good people can thrive. Making those calls has made us stronger as a crew and reminded me that the right people will always step up when we need ’em to. Like last year, our staff numbers halved and the remaining staff all banded together. Not only did we get the same amount of work done, but we obviously increased efficiency, increased turnover, which increased net profit with a smaller team. So as I said to a few people in the last R&R, bigger is not always better and sometimes you’re just better off running lean and getting into it. 

Andy
But those guys you’ve kept all have your back and you’ve all gone in to fight to make sure you’re a better business. And then you look at those staff you got rid of, and that’s probably where all the negative profit was coming from because of what was going on there, right? 

Matt
Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. We had a lot of bad efficiencies, like riding two up in a vehicle, but only one guy doing the work and the other guy just standing there. A lot of dicking around through work hours. Everyone knows that there’s tracking on vehicles, but they’ve obviously think that nobody checks ’em, and you, you’re looking at vehicles that have got eight to 10 hours of idle time on them per week and you’re like, how are you idling for fucking 10 hours? It doesn’t make sense, but yeah, like I say, you soon work ’em out, but holding onto ’em doesn’t, does not help. 

Ange
I think a good lesson for that is perhaps ensuring that if you’re in a situation that you have a problem with a team member, we actually have to speak up and not let it go on forever. I think some people don’t like confrontation, but it’s important that we’re aware that we actually have to control the business. I wanna actually change tact a little bit and I wanna ask you a question. Uh, so for either of you to answer, what’s one of the biggest business lessons you’ve learnt?

Sonia
I think one of the biggest ones we’ve learnt is charging correctly and knowing our numbers. So early on we thought we could be the people who said yes to everything, doing any job anywhere and doing it cheaper than anyone. And that was something to be proud of. And we were damn proud of it because we knew that everyone could rely and depend on us. But looking back now, we realize basically what fools we were. And at the end of the day, it was us personally and our kids that suffered for it. Yeah. So the truth is you don’t know what you don’t know. You really need business coaching and even personal coaching, you’ve got to understand the finances properly and track each individual job to make sure that what you’re doing is actually profitable. So what works now might not work later. Um, as your finances change and as the team grows, it needs to be reviewed again. And every business has different overheads. Every company needs to charge a different rate to actually thrive. 

Matt
Charging what everyone else charges doesn’t mean you’ll make money. Yeah. It means you’re in a race to the bottom. Yeah. Owning a business isn’t just surviving. We all do it to make money, not just a scrape buy. A mate said to me, you’re probably the best plumber I know, and yet you charge $99 an hour to fix jobs that other companies have spent thousands of dollars on fuckups on. How good does that make you feel? And I might, mate, fuck. Hell, that hit me like a ton of brick days. Yeah. And he was right. Yeah. People are gonna winch no matter what, so I might as well make some money while I do it. Since then, we’ve lifted our prices up a lot. And, um, we’ve lost some contracts, but honestly, the best move we’ve ever made is by lifting the prices. Do we still get complaints about pricing? Fuck enough. But we get a lot of people that are happy with the cost and the value that we give. So regardless if you’re cheap or if you’re expensive, you’re still gonna get complaints. So just put your business and price your business where you need to be to thrive, not just survive. 

Sonia
And to have those A and B clients.

Andy
Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent guys, you absolutely nailed that. Was there a time that something really didn’t go to plan? What did you take from that?

Matt
Fuck. Some didn’t go to plan, mate. Things don’t go to plan every day. Um, fuck. Yeah. There’s plenty of, plenty of things that haven’t gone to plan a lot over the years. The biggest takeout for me has probably been if there’s no plan, there’s no systems and no processes. You can’t expect staff to magically get it right every time accidents happen. That’s business. What I’ve learned is that no one is ever gonna care about your business as much as you do, but if you bring the team into the fold, sit ’em down, talk through the wins, the losses, and the impacts, they start to understand why it matters. Money’s a big motivator too. Let’s be honest. Most people don’t give a shit unless it’s costing them. Another big lesson, if I die tomorrow or if I retire, those clients that we all bend over backwards for haha, go, oh geez, that’s sad. He’s gone anyway. Better find another plumber. By that afternoon, they would’ve forgotten my name. And that’s the reality of it. So don’t let clients or anyone else dictate your life, your family time, or your goals, and only you can make that happen. So get after it. 

Andy
Yeah, I love that, mate. That is absolutely awesome. I used to say, you know when people go, I couldn’t charge that person that, and I’m like, well, when you’re in a wheelchair, are they gonna come to the nursing home and push you around? I’m like, no. Well take it on board, mate. You need to look after you and your life. That is awesome. I loved what you said there, buddy. 

Ange
I think one of the ultimate desires for every trade business owner is to reach this level of what we call freedom. Whereby you can truthfully decide whether or not you wanna work in the business or where you wanna take time off and know that the business is seamless, streamline and profitable whilst you are gone. And for you two, what I love is that you’ve been taking these consistent four week holidays, including planning an Epic WA road trip. I know. So to be able to do that, because I know everyone listening is saying, how did you pull that off? What had to change in your business to give you that freedom? 

Sonia
Well, over the years, uh, we’ve really focused on building those strong systems and empowering our team, um, empowering themselves that they can do this without us. So we’ve done that by investing in reliable processes, Effective tools, solid training, and we’ve been able to delegate more and ensure that everyone’s on the same page. We are incredibly fortunate to have fantastic staff because without the right people around us, none of this would’ve been possible. So we have two senior staff members that have been with us for quite some time now, and they’re not only exceptional at what they both do, but they’re great friends of ours now and generally have the best interests of the company at heart. So having this level of trust and dedication allows us the freedom to step away, recharge, and enjoy our life without worrying about the day to day back here. Like, don’t get me wrong, we will still check if it’s a habit, it’s our business. Yes. And you check in with ’em to say, oh, how’s it, how’s the day going? Or they’re like, how’s the holiday? And things like that. But we’re not getting those constant questions of how do I do this? How do I do that? This has happened. Mrs. Smith is complaining. It’s a big thing for us. 

Matt
That’s where the friendship thing comes into it too. Like everyone sort of says you can’t have friends in business, but, and, and your employees shouldn’t be your friends, but as I stated back then, if they are just your employees, then they’re only ever gonna act like just your employees. Yeah. So if they’re your mates, there’s a fair chance that they’re gonna genuinely care and look after what’s yours when you are not there. 

Sonia
But when we go away, that’s our biggest time to test our systems. So even like yesterday, for example, I just went to a plumbing networking event and I got two questions whilst I was out. I directed them through to the office girls and they were able to sort it, but my next thing was, ’cause I was driving, Hey Siri, set reminder. And I’m documenting that process because I’m like, right, they’ve asked me this and I don’t really need to be the one to answer it. So we do the same with Matt. We say to the girls in the office, make a list. What is it that you need to ask Matt for if you have to ask him? We need to document it. Not that we don’t wanna hear from you, but we wanna make it easy for everyone that they don’t have to be chasing us. Um, if Matt’s always on the phone. That’s a common complaint he used to get. I can never reach you, but if, um.

Andy
Is that Siri just kicking in, saying all as a list? I love that. 

Sonia
A hundred percent, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Ange
Your best friend.

Sonia
Um, yes. So, we wanna stop that. We don’t want the staff to feel like they can’t contact anyone. So if they’ve got a backup of, okay, I need to know this answer. Here’s where I can find it. So yeah, the holidays are a good thing to test those processes.

Andy
And you guys have had plenty of holidays and got plenty more to come and there’s nothing better than when the business is humming and you’re making money and everything’s comfortable, you can be sitting back on a beach with a beer in hand. Hey, I know you guys have focused a bit on mental and physical wellbeing recently. How has that impacted your business? 

Matt
So we’ve recently engaged a personal health coach. He’s a pretty good fella and uh, it’s made a huge difference in both our outlook on life and how we interact with people. 

Andy
Yes. 

Matt
The idea you don’t know what you don’t know really rings true if you are not right, nothing around you can be right. And it’s, it’s, it’s tough to get anything right when that’s away. So we focused on mental health, a bit of grounding techniques and breathing and, and consistent gym work, eating the right foods and staying hydrated. It’s helped me to stay a little bit calmer and more focused.

Ange
That’s good. 

Matt
And uh, I used to get a lot of brain fog, which returned to anger. Yes. This is helping the change. 

Ange
Work in progress. 

Matt
Yeah, it’s still, it’s still not there yet, but it’s, it’s on its way. 

Sonia
So I’ve been working with Matt as well. We do it as a joint thing that we can do together because health personally isn’t just one of us. Like we’re a husband and wife team. We’ve got the kids, so we do have to work together. But I’ve also been working with a holistic empowerment coach who’s helped me to manage the long-term high stress. That running a business has. So it’s helped me to rediscover myself personally, both with confidence, joy, self-love, and just helped me to overall nurture myself. Um, I found, and I hear it a lot in the tradie life business like that, running the back end, that you lose yourself a little bit when you come into the business and, uh, even as a mom, you, you lose yourself a bit and yeah, top that up with the business. So I found that was a huge struggle for me over the years and finally found a way to help myself. So it’s definitely impacted the business in a positive way because we’re now starting to share our learnings with the team. Matt, when he has his one-to-ones, he will help guide some of our staff if they’re having some particular issues or struggles with things. He’s got ways to help them now as well. 

Ange
I love this. The reality is burnout in trade business is real for the fact that you own a trade business. You are always thinking about business, even on a weekend going on holidays. It’s really tricky to switch off and when you have other commitments in life with children or just life in general. The connectivity with social media means you are so connected at all times, which means it’s really hard to switch off. And it’s really important to ensure that you look after yourself first ’cause like what you both just said, you must come first as an owner of the business because everything falls behind you. Yes. We need to structure the business so the business doesn’t rely on us as a business owner. However, you are still the leaders of the business. And so you do need to maintain this consistency of mental stability and um, spirituality and, you know, everything you’ve just said you are both working on. So I love that you’ve gone down this wellbeing concept and realized how important it is to consider yourselves first. So I. That needs to be said and honored. 

Matt
I’ll tell you, it wasn’t very much, wellbeing when you’re leaving home in the dark and getting home in the dark every day for, for 10 years. So that’s it. Nowadays, it’s a big part of it ’cause like we reach burnout. Like I, I think I’m still burnt out now, but nowadays I don’t start work until 8:30. And I’m in the gym working out by two o’clock. That’s my workday’s eight 30 to noon, no later than really two o’clock, which then obviously means that I’m getting home just as the kids get home. So then there’s time for football training or I’ve been putting our daughter through some workouts at home at the moment, getting ready for preseason next year. So she’s,

Ange
Good to hear. 

Matt
Yeah, she’s soaking at the moment that her legs are sore. So, 

Andy
Mate, I just love how that whole journey has shifted and any tradie out there listening to this and thinking, oh my God. I was like, Matt and Sonia were in the early days, but just to turn this around like you guys have done, has been incredible. Listen, one more question. One more question. One piece of advice to trade business owners out there that are wanting to grow. What would it be? 

Matt
Alright, so the biggest thing I wish had happened for us first was get yourself a good trade specific business coach. Once you’ve got that coach, it’s crucial that you actually do the work. Start from the bottom, build strong foundations and ensure your business is well structured. You can’t grow a business if you look like an upside down pyramid. No. Also don’t be like everyone else. Carve your own path and develop your own methods. Keep a close eye on your finances and track each job to ensure profitability. Remember, you didn’t get into business just to survive. You’re doing it to thrive. Don’t let the business run your life. Take holidays, spend time with the family and charge what you’re worth. Quality service deserves quality pay. And remember, bigger is not always better. Don’t hire the first bloke that comes along or hire out of pure need. Hire the right person that fits in with the company. Don’t just hire outta desperation. That’s our problem starts. 

Andy
Yeah, a hundred percent mate. You bang on with everything you said then. Listen, this has been amazing, listening to you guys and your journey. We do play a little bit of a game on some of our podcasts where we are gonna ask you some rapid fire questions. There’s gonna be three of them. You have less than 10 seconds to answer them. Are you ready?

Matt
Ready. 

Ange
Okay, question one. The question is, what’s one thing you do to start your day right? 

Matt
Uh, magnesium, fish oil, lemon with water, treadmill, and salt. 

Ange
Listen to you.

Andy
Oh my God. Listen to this bloke. He’s flexing in the video. He’s built like an absolute truck. He’s a yobo like me. And listen to what he’s starting the day like. How have things changed? 

Matt
It’s the change. It’s a bit woo woo, but it actually works. 

Andy
I love that. 

Ange
Sonia, what about you Sonia? 

Sonia
For me, I’m still trying to achieve the morning routine part. So winter makes it very hard to get up and go, but I used to, um, so yeah, probably the last two months I haven’t, but I’d always get up and start the day with a 5K walk. I usually go for a walk with my mom and our dog. And that was, it was just a nice fresh start to the morning, then get home and get going for the kids and whatnot. 

Ange
It is fresh in the middle of winter, so I, yes. 

Andy
I absolutely love that. So what is something that has made you smile recently?

Matt
Receiving stupid messages from the mates.

Andy
Oh really? What?

Ange
That’s a wagon to Tony.

Andy
Okay. Are you gonna, um, elaborate on that a little bit or no?

Matt
No, no. There’s no elaboration on that one.

Andy
What about you, Sonia? 

Sonia
For me, it would be our kids. So every night they play a game of, you know, after dinner. Oh. And they decide who has to clear the table. So there’s uh, what, two and a half years between them. But it’s so beautiful to hear them laugh and banter together. They, they really do get along really well for brother and sister, but, 

Matt
They’re like card sharks. It’s a gamble of who’s gonna put the dishes away. Yeah. Yeah. 

Andy
I love that.

Sonia
Like, we’re sitting there and we can just hear them like you are joking. And announce they’ve, they’ve got the wild cards where they’ve written down it’s pick up 20 cards and that so they have a bit of fun.

Ange
They do bring so much joy to your life, don’t they? And, uh, they, they do. It’s a real eyeopener that they’re only around for so long. So enjoy every moment you have with them. All right, question three.

Sonia
Definitely.

Ange
What’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received? 

Matt
Well, I’ve got two. All right. First one is never take on a job you can’t afford to lose or complete yourself. This will grow as your bank account grows. 

Ange
Mm-hmm. 

Matt
And the next one is, no matter how irreplaceable you think you are, clients will forget your name by the end of the day. Do what’s right for you, not what they expect from you.

Andy
Nope.

Ange
So true. Yeah. What about you, Sonia?

Sonia
So for me, I’d say everything comes back to health, as we were just mentioning before. So if you’re highly strung and stressed, it’s gonna show up in your business and in your actions. So that old saying of a clear desk is a clear mind. So having that tidy workspace helps you to think more clearly and productively. So I make a point at the end of each day of clearing my desk, um, and I’m a big list person, so to keep my head clear and to help me sleep at night, I’ll document in writing so that I’m not constantly trying to remember. So the biggest thing I was taught is, yeah, clear desk, clear mind, and if not, it’s all gonna show off in you the rest of your life. And that includes work.

Ange
Couldn’t agree more.

Matt
So we’re completely opposite on that. Yeah. I don’t write shit down and my desk is dirty. 

Andy
Listen, you guys are absolute superstars, Ange and I have just loved watching the journey from the hard, tough days to where you are now, and you’re so knowledgeable and there’s so many people at Lifestyle Tradie and at our events that are coming up to you. You know, you’re just, uh, world beaters at the moment with so much wisdom and helping everyone out, which we really appreciate as well. 

Ange
Well, we love having you both a part of the Lifestyle Tradie community, because we all know that as your business grows, we continually face challenges, and both of you are so open about talking about those challenges and your successes back into the group. And I think that needs to be acknowledged too. We can’t wait to see you both smash future goals completely. And we enjoy this new WA trip that is potentially on the cards.

Sonia
Yes. Thank you very much. We’re looking forward to it. 

Andy
Yeah, it’s so great to have you guys on The Tradie Show. Have you enjoyed it?

Sonia
I definitely love it. We love working with you guys and R&R, uh, the best thing. That’s the one piece of advice we say to every new member when we see them. You’ve got to go to every single R&R because that’s where you have those connections and that’s the community. And that’s the biggest thing we love. You go there not wondering, like not sure of what do I wanna know this time or what do I wanna talk to, but then you get all this information and you’re like, actually, I really need to know that. That’s awesome. And, 

Andy
Yeah, I absolutely love it. So listen, we are gonna wrap the show off with the one and only 3, 2, 1.

All
Hell yeah. Hell yeah!

Andy
Thank you guys, and we’ll chat with you very soon.

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