Why Good Tradies Lose Customers (And How to Keep Them Coming Back) | Justin Herald

Andy
But from the customer side, it feels inconsistent. They start hesitating, comparing other businesses, and telling fewer people how good you are.

Angela
Our guest today, Justin Herald, says that’s not always a people problem, it’s a standards problem.

Justin is the author of Service Rebellion: The Wolfpack Standard, and in this episode, we’re unpacking why customers leave, why teams drift, and how to build a standard that holds tight even when the business is busy, messy, or under pressure.

Andy
I’m really excited about this podcast today because in an age where AI is coming like a freight train, there is even more reason to lean in on the human element of a trade business.

That, my friends, will be the one thing to keep customers loyal, referring you to their friends, and helping you build a seriously successful business. But what does that even mean? Well, our guest today is gonna speak about exactly that.

Andy
You’re listening to The Tradie Show. This is the podcast for trade, business, and contracting bosses like you who wanna lead with confidence, make more profit, and create a better lifestyle.

Angela
We’re your hosts, Andy and Angela Smith, husband and wife team and co-founders of Lifestyle Tradie. Are you ready to have some fun?

Andy
Hell yeah!

Andy
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Andy
Justin, let’s start with why do good tradies still lose customers even when they do incredible work?

Justin
Um, good day. I, I, um, I think this for me is a bit of a no-brainer because if I… And we’ve got tradies at the moment all through our house because unfortunately we’ve had a water pipe burst. Um, and so I’ve had to have a plethora of tradies come in.

Now, the reality is, and this is where I think as business owners, regardless of whether you’re a tradie or not a tradie, um, people seem to forget this little bit. Like as a, as a tradie, I’m expecting you to be good at your job. That’s sort of why you’re in your job, right? So I think there’s a lot of times as business owners we put a lot of effort in trying to prove or trying to promote how good we are.

But the reality is the reason, uh, many tradies forget this especially is how you make me feel is really, really important and especially from a tradies perspective because, uh, look, if I look at my house, you’re coming into my place so I’m emotionally attached to my place. So if there’s no emotional attachment or a- at least acknowledgement, then that actually plays a weight.

You can still go and fix my pipes all you want, you can still go and lay the tiles down, but if I’m now an interruption to your day and it’s my bloody home, then that actually makes me feel a certain way and, and this is where Um, some customers or some clients, they’ll get the job done, but that, that’s it.

There, there’s no more. There’s no memory that’s been left after that.

Angela
Yeah, it’s interesting you say that. Skilled labor really is a dime a dozen, right? So what actually sets you apart from the other tradie who is you in your geographic boundary? There’s loads of them.

Justin
Yeah. Look, I think a lot of it’s about communication is very important.

Um, yeah. And, and also reading your customer and reading your client because, uh, I’m totally different to my wife. My wife will wanna know everything from ins and outs of a duck’s rear end- … where I just wanna know what time you’re turning up- Yeah … how much is it gonna cost, and, um, will you be turning up on the same time tomorrow?

And your answer means I believe it, and that’s something that I think, um, especially from… And I’m not, I’m not bashing tradies ’cause, you know, f- we sort of need you, and AI can’t replace you. Um, but I’m relying on your word, and, and that’s part of, of my experience with you. Um, how long it takes you to change my pipe is the only thing I can think of right now.

How long it take… I, I am really not that fussed. Um, I, I just wanna make sure that if you say you’re gonna be there at 9:00, and I’ve put my entire day around you turning up at 9:00, well, can you just turn up at 9:00? Actually, 10:00 to 9:00 would be better, but, um, just 9:00 would be fine.

Angela
Yeah. It’s interesting you say that. So Justin, why do you believe that most businesses don’t have a marketing problem, that they actually have a customer retention problem?

Justin
Uh, look, marketing gets people once. Um, this is a big thing ’cause as, uh, you guys might r- remember this, but I’ve never spent any money on advertising or marketing in 31 years, right?

Um, because when people like you and like your business or your brand, then they’re gonna help you promote it, and they’re gonna keep on coming back. So marketing just gets someone’s attention once. Memories are the things that bring them back, and that’s the big thing that we’ve gotta remember, and especially anyone listening to this, uh… or before I s- go down that path, there’ll be some older people listening to this, the older tradies, will go, “You’re just talking the stuff that used to make sense in the olden days.” That is 100% correct.

Angela
Yeah.

Justin
And for you younger tradies, you guys have gotta remember there’s a, there’s been a foundation, no pun intended, there’s been a foundation that’s been laid way before you were alive, and old school shit on how to do business is so powerful.

And you can have the best marketing campaign you want under the sun, but if we’re not looking after people, if we’re not keeping our word, if we’re not actually backing up our, the experiences, then it’s all gonna fall over, and it’s actually built like an upside down pyramid Now if I could give you an analogy, and I put this in the book, Hansel and Gretel, um, for the younger ones, probably don’t remember what that is.

Probably not. But Hansel and Gretel, what the… They left breadcrumbs to fi- well, originally they left pebbles, and the evil stepmother found them, but they left breadcrumbs to find their way out. Just remember, if you’re a business owner, and you’ve got staff especially, you’re all leaving breadcrumbs every single time.

Now, where are those breadcrumbs leading? Are they leading back to your business, or are they leading away from your business? And unfortunately, probably outside of trades more from my experience, there’s a lot of businesses not leaving any breadcrumbs or any memories whatsoever. And so every interaction either builds or- or- or it erodes, and, um, I think this is something that we’ve gotta teach our staff.

We’ve gotta remember, um, especially the memory part for me, if you’re a business owner with staff, um, if you’ve come to my house and quoted, for example, or you got, uh, people who quote for you, they are the face of your business. That is my first impression that I have of your business, and, well, your website probably, but the, the first person I come in contact with, and you don’t get a second chance at a first impression.

And so if you’ve then got a, your team to go in after you, they’ve gotta build on that first impression, not create a new one, um, and a worse one.

Angela
Yeah, we talk a lot about, um, that trust factor. You have this one moment, don’t you, to make that first impression, and if you don’t build trust quickly, you, you need to claim basically these ticks that we talk about to ensure that a customer constantly subconsciously says, “I’ve made the right decision to invite this person into my property to even give me a quote.”

‘Cause it’s, it, the competition is high, right? So yeah, totally hear what you’re saying.

Andy
Listen, everyone loves working with people that are like them and they like, you know? And you’re exactly right in everything that you’re saying there. You know, it, it’s not about being the best tradie and knocking it over in a record speed.

It’s about… And then running out the door. It’s about building the whole journey through the whole process, making sure you’ve got this real deep connection with the customer. They think, “You know what? Johnny’s a really good bloke. He’s done a good job. It’s clean, it’s tidy. I really like these guys, and I’m gonna ring them again.

Maybe they weren’t the cheapest, but oh my God, the service and the way they made me feel was amazing.” And that’s what you’re saying, Justin, isn’t it? You’ve gotta build that connection.

Justin
Well, anyone can, um, be average, and I think all we’re getting today is average experiences. Um, my, my, uh, my wife hates me saying it this way, but it, it’s tofu.

Yeah. Like, I don’t understand why people like tofu. I don’t either. There’s no point for tofu to be on a plate. But that’s what most of our experiences are like, right? They’re like tofu. They’re there. Um, apparently there’s a reason for it. Um, it’s got no flavor unless something else is next to it- Valid … or with it, and that is how we’re actually getting most of our service.

So if you’re a tradie listening to this and you wanna stand out, here’s my 100% money back guarantee on how to do it. It’s not rocket science. Don’t suck as much as your competitor. If you can do that- … you’re gonna stand out. It’s not that hard. It’s not about trying to aim for this level of excellence ’cause you’re never gonna hit it, right?

‘Cause the whole, um, ship is moving on a daily basis. We’ve got so many things being thrown at us. As we all know, six years ago someone licked a bat and threw the entire world into- … disarray. So all of this stuff’s going on, right? And so the, the thing’s moving, so it’s not about going, “I’m gonna be excellent today.”

Give it a shot, like, you know, have a crack, but just don’t suck as much as everyone else, and that’s the thing that’s gonna make you stand out.

Angela
I think your message there is actually give a shit. Like, you’ve gotta give a shit about-

Justin
Absolutely …

Angela
cadi- catering to your customers because anyone can go through the motions of talking to a client, doing the job, w- you know, collecting money on completion and leaving, and kind of the steps, let’s call it, that they follow to do that job.

But someone actually has to give a shit about the customer to ensure that they feel like that, that, um, company, that trade company actually cared about them. So, mm, very valid.

Justin
And we don’t wanna make transactions.

Angela
Mm.

Justin
Right? Yes. ‘Cause, like, every- everything’s transactional at the moment. Like, you go into…

Like, I’ve got the privilege of having five daughters and one wife, and we live right near Pacific Fair. So I’ve got the privilege of going shopping with them all the time. You’re so lucky. Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, I know it. Yay me. Um, but when I go into retail now, it, it’s, everything’s a transaction. Yes. They stand behind the counter, they wait for you to bring the money to them.

They say, “Thank you very much,” and that’s it. And so there’s nothing that’s built. And, and when you understand that your c- your customer or your client, whatever you wanna call them, is not just one transaction, they could be another 10 to 20, um, and they’re gonna help you grow your business, you sit there and go, “Well, I’m actually doing this all wrong.”

And that’s why I wanted to write the book, ’cause I wanted people to understand the simplicity of it, but I also wanted them… The main thing, and I’m not sure if you’ve got this from reading the book, is it’s not about smiling more and being friendlier. This is about actually changing behavior and understanding that customer service and the way we make people feel and experience, that is a sales tool. It’s not just an aftermarket thing.

Angela
Agreed.

Andy
Yeah, exactly.

Andy
All right, let’s cut to the chase. When was the last time your business worked for you instead of running you into the ground? If you’re sitting there thinking, “Yep, that’s me,” then we need to talk. I’m Andy Smith, and I’ve been where you are. Long hours, cash flow nightmares, no control.

Does any of this sound familiar? But here’s the thing. You don’t have to keep living like this. There’s a way out, and it starts with a gameplan call. It’s just 10 minutes. We’re going to identify the bottlenecks holding your business back and map out a clear, straightforward plan to get you moving forward.

Think of it as your shortcut to make more profit, more control, and more time to actually enjoy your life. And if you’re stuck with cash flow issues, team headaches, or just feel like you’re drowning in endless work, well, guess what? I’ve got your back. So here’s what you need to do. Head to lifestyletradie.com.au, hit the big green Gameplan Call button, or just scroll down on your phone.

Listen, if a 10-minute call could save you hours of headaches, why wouldn’t you take it? Make the move. Let’s turn things around and get your business working for you, not against you. Hell yeah.

Andy
Let’s look at some of the businesses out there. There’s some businesses that it almost feels impossible to leave, while there’s other businesses that it’s like, “You know what? I’m happy to see what else is out there.” Tell me the difference.

Justin
Uh, look, I’m gonna give it, this from a consumer perspective, right? So I’m not a tradie. I own a ute- … which apparently means my wife thinks I should be able to do stuff, but I can’t. Um, so I’m not a tradie, but I am a consumer, and I’m someone that actually uses a lot of tradies.

My advice to you, if you’re a tradie, don’t compete on price, right? Your price is your price, and just becoming the cheapest doesn’t mean you’re gonna get ahead. And just because you’re the most expensive doesn’t mean you’re the best. But if you understand the numbers, and I know you guys work, uh, with this on, with people, but you gotta understand the numbers, right?

And if it do- if you’re getting clients just because you need to tick over the business to hopefully make it, it work, that’s gonna reflect somehow in the consumer experience or the customer experience. So don’t worry about price. Pr- If you think about it, price is only a problem to people when they can’t see value.

So if you’ve got people complaining about your price, that means they’re not seeing the value that you said that you were going to provide. So you, we’ve gotta do that. I think the main reason people leave, or why I leave, is uncertainty. So when, when I’ve got to manage, and we’ve had a few tradies which are no longer tradies in our house, but that I’ve got to manage their process, I don’t understand your process.

But when I’ve got to manage it, then I’m uncertain whether the job’s gonna be done right, whether you’re gonna turn up on time, and it’s one of the… I c- talk about eight levels in the book, and one of the levels is of the level of uncertainty. And there’s one question that all of your customers are going to ask probably within the first two to three days that you’re working with them, and that is, do I matter here?

Because they’re gonna feel like they’ve just been signed up for a dollar sign, or whether you actually care about their outcome. And I’m, as I said before, this is it from a house perspective, I’m emotionally attached, so I care about the outcome, and I just need to feel that you feel that as well.

Andy
Yeah, love that. Love that.

Angela
So Justin, what is the biggest mistake the trade businesses make once the job is finished?

Justin
They disappear.

Angela
Oh.

Justin
You never hear from them again. And I’ll give you a different example of this one outside of trade, just so… A- and I know everyone here would understand this one. Now, I’m a car nut. I love my cars.

My wife thinks they’re a waste of money, but I love them. I don’t get the shoe thing, she doesn’t get the car thing, so we’re even. Um, but I have bought a lot of cars over the years. How many is irrelevant, but a lot of cars over the years. I have never bought a second car from the same dealership in 31 years because I’ve never heard from them after they’ve got my money.

And whilst I, I understand that the big trade is going, “Yeah, well, I’ve solved their problem. They just wanted a pergola built, and now the pergola’s built,” right? Yeah, good. But there’s also other stuff that they may need in the future. And what you don’t wanna do, and we see this in corporate a lot, um, where the only time you’ll hear from someone is when you- your next renewal’s due.

Insurance companies, for example. Your next renewal’s due, and oh, the broker’s on the phone. Um, so this is where what we’ve gotta start to do is go, okay, how do I actually leave those pebbles or those, uh, breadcrumbs along the way after the thing’s done? Um, they never check in. This is another reason, uh, m- uh, mistakes Uh, the tradies make, they never check in after that.

Not, not so… Well, a week later would be fantastic, going, “Is the pergola still standing?” That might be a good idea.

Angela
That’d be a great idea.

Justin
Um, maybe two or three months later just going, “Hey, just making sure everything’s fine. If you ever need anything else…” So it’s not a sale, right? It, it’s just a check-in, but it’s also to keep that, and for what you said, tick, tick, um, just to go, “Oh, that’s right, they’re there again.”

But the other thing is we’ve gotta remember tradies are highly referable, so if you’re not actually front of mind, you’re gonna be back of the queue. So this is why we’ve gotta actually try and figure out along the way, how do I actually stay present after the fact? And that, like, it doesn’t make sense when you think about it, but I, I’ve been, um, well, more so speaking now for many years on stages, and I still get jobs that I had 10 or…

I got one this morning that the last time was hair care company. As you can see, I’m very apt with the hair care companies. Um, but I spoke for them in 2014, but every year I’ll send an update. Every year I’ll go, “Congratulations on your awards,” and here we go, I get another speaking job, all because I’m still in their mind.

Angela
And that communication literally probably took you seconds.

Justin
100%. And then, and then, but it’s something that, you know, I could go and spend thousands of dollars on marketing, go, “I hope people remember my brand,” or I send an email once every six or 12 months just going, you know, or, or congratulations or a happy birthday, there’s one, a happy birthday or something like that.

Um, but the, it, my, one of my favorite sayings is just because the sale’s been done doesn’t mean the customer’s been won, right? So just remember that that customer to you, every single client that you’ve got right now, and past ones, you can still rescue them, if you go and get in contact with y- with them, they’re your pseudo sales force that are gonna be out there promoting your business.

Angela
Yeah, our re- we talk about, as you know, Justin, retention a lot inside Lifestyle Tradie with our members. So regardless whether they’re maintenance based or project based, they absolutely could get back inside that property regardless of what it is. And then referrals, of course, is there’s so much money sitting right there. So let’s- But emotional bank account.

Andy
Yeah, yeah, so let’s talk about that. Why do so many businesses get referrals wrong even when customers love them?

Justin
Oh, look, this is one of my favorite things to talk about. Without a shameless plug, this is why I launched referusnetwork.com, like a s- a software program, um, around this.

‘Cause referrals, the whole process of referrals makes sense, word of mouth, but it, it’s archaic. So if you think about it, right, the whole referral process is putting the power of the referral into someone’s hands that’s never dealt with you. Makes no sense to me. So I’m sitting at a barbecue, this happened on the weekend, sitting at a barbecue and someone goes, “Oh, do you know a good plumber?”

I go, “Yep, I do.” Now, the normal way that happens, and what we’re hoping happens, which when you think about it and I say it out loud, you go, “That’s dumb,” we then will go, “When I get home, I’ll send you Jimmy Bloggs’s, um, details.” Now, we’ll keep on drinking, keep on having our sausages and whatever. I’ll get home, Renee will say to me, “Oh, you forgot to put the garbage out.

It’s garbage night.” Then I’ve gotta run outside and do the garbage, and then drop stuff all over the floor, come back in, totally forget about I’m supposed to send someone, uh, someone’s details. And so then the plumber has, the main thing, has no idea that I’ve just gone and spoken about them. And I wanted to go and upset, uh, that whole process, and, um, ’cause I just like upsetting everything really.

And so what, uh, what happens now, I’m sitting at the barbecue, someone says, “I need a new plumber.” I’ll p- pull out my phone, click one button. I then in 10 seconds send that, that, um, person’s details to the plumber. The plumber and the person I’m sending the details gets the same details straight to their mobile phone.

I’m done. I’m having my beer and my sausages and on I go. So the problem with referrals is we’re hoping people do something about it. Now, word of mouth has to be your number one strategy in business. You can go and have marketing all you want, but if people aren’t naturally talking about you, you’ve got a natural problem.

And so what we’ve gotta do is make anything that is natural in our business easier. Um, and if we’ve got our customers, and that’s how I’ve grown my businesses. I’ve got raving fans that just talk about me all the time. And if I’ve got a little bit of f- five seconds, it’s actually longer than five seconds.

Let me give you a, a really interesting story. About six years ago, I get a phone call from a, um, a guy or a company, and they said, “Oh, so and so said you’d be a great speaker for our event.” I said, “Oh, thank you.” We had a good chat. I got the gig. And I said to Renee, “I have no idea who they were talking about who referred me.”

Looked through my emails, couldn’t find him. Found him on Facebook, and I saw that we’re connected. So, um, anyway, so I reached out and said, “Hey, could you, um, give me a call in the morning?” Gave him my phone number. He rung up, and I said, um, “Thanks for the referral.” Um, I pay 10% if anyone refers me of my speaking fee.

And he said, “Oh, really?” I said, “Yeah.” And he goes, “Oh, I don’t need it.” I said, “I don’t care if you need it, I’m gonna do it anyway.” Anyway, so the next day he rings up and he goes, um, “You made a mistake.” I said, “Oh.” He goes, “You put $770 in my account.” I said, “I know.” He goes, “I thought, y- it was 10%.” I said, “It is.” He goes, “You get paid seven grand.”

I went, “I do.” He goes, “I’m gonna keep on doing it.” I said, “I know. That’s why I do it.” Right?

Andy
Yeah, I love that.

Justin
Now, over the last six or so years, every year I’ll get from him about 14 to 15 speaking jobs that he refers.

Andy
Wow.

Justin
The last one I got from him, I rang him up and I said, um… It was a big one. I said, “Listen, thank you so much.”

He goes, “No worries.” I said, “Mate, I’ve never asked you a question.” He said, “What’s that?” I said, “Where did you hear me speak?” He said, “I’ve never heard you speak.” And this is where tradies get this wrong. You hope people will talk about your business because they’ve dealt with your business. Now, I’m not sure if anyone’s gone and done that rabbit hole thing and gone on Facebook Marketplace pages or the local marketplace.

Oh, what a nightmare those people are. Um, you know, I saw one the other day, “Can someone tell me whose dog’s barking?” Oh, yeah, sure, Karen. I can go and find that person for you. Anyway, but if you think about it, people are a- always looking for someone to help them with their problems, especially tradies, right?

So if you make the process simpler for people to become a referrer for you, regardless of whether they’ve dealt with your business, your business will absolutely rocket. And just make the whole process easier, um, ’cause people, uh, don’t really only refer, uh, for businesses they like. They, they refer for businesses that make them feel good.

And if you look at referrals as a essence, a referral is a, um, transfer of trust, if you think about it. And the other thing is my reputation, um, is on s- at stake before yours as a business comes into play, right? Which means I’ve gotta m- I’m only gonna refer the people I know are gonna do the right job.

Otherwise, I’m gonna be called an asshole by the people that I’ve just referred to your business, and I don’t need that. I, I can be, um, a, a nightmare all by myself. I don’t need anyone else’s, uh, um, assistance in that whole process.

Angela
So if you just talked about trust, what, um, how does a trade business create trust?

Justin
Keep your word. Um, y- you’ve gotta, y- y- you know, and if y- look, if you’re gonna be running late for a job, here’s an idea. Got this thing in your… It’s called, like, uh, it’s one of these, right? And so as you’re driving, running late, knowing you’re gonna be late, ’cause now we’ve all got Waze or we’ve got Google Maps or whatever, it won’t tell you exactly what time you’re gonna be there, ish.

If you’re gonna be late, make a phone call. “I’m so sorry I’m gonna be late.” And then I’ll go, “Oh, no worries.” Now, still now, you’ve, you’ve dropped the ball, but well, it’s not your fault, which is the other thing, but you dropped the ball, but now I know, so I’m okay. Um, so but y- d- I think a lot of it is around keeping your word.

Um, you know, I know going through insurance, so I now understand how a lot of these insurance company builders and stuff operate, ’cause they start with a very low, um, quote, and then all of a sudden it’s massive and they go, “Okay, that’s not fine.” But, you know, things are gonna change, right? So you’re gonna come up with a quote and then something’s gonna go wrong.

But because there’s a trust factor in there, people then won’t think you’re trying to rip them off. They just think that, you know, this is part of the process. So I think that’s part of that. And just be consistent, I think, is the other thing as well. Um, and it doesn’t mean you gotta be perfect every day, by the way.

You’re gonna screw up and you’re gonna stuff up, but that’s fine. But as long as there’s that level of trust along the way, I think, you know, that will carry a relationship a very long way.

Andy
Yeah, agree.

Angela
Seems so basic, doesn’t it?

Andy
Yeah, it does. So what’s one simple behavioral standard every trade business listening right now could implement maybe this week that would be, you know, cause a really big impact for, for customer loyalty for them?

Justin
Consistency across the board, and this is why, um, I, I call them and I wanted to create a book around standards, right? There’s the old saying that you can’t… Oh, you, you’ve gotta draw the line in the sand. Oh, I’ve never understood that one, ’cause as soon as the tide comes in, the line’s gone, right? Fallon.

And if you think about a, a lot of businesses have done that and, and rightly so. They’ve gone, “I’m gonna, you know, set the, set the tone and set the culture.” Um, and like, and cultures are in most businesses, they just decide how, how people are feeling on the day. But culture’s not a mood, it’s a muscle. It’s something we’ve gotta build.

It’s something we’ve gotta work all the time. So I put this in the book and there’s, there’s a whole chapter in it, on it, but the l- the line’s not in the sand anymore. The line’s in the, in the concrete. That sucker is not going to move. That means every person in the business operates at a certain level and a certain standard.

Doesn’t mean you’re not gonna screw up. It just means we know what the standard is. That means any new person that comes into the business doesn’t upset the apple cart by them having a pretty weak, um, culture view. The standard’s the standard, and that’s why I called it the Wolfpack standard is because as a team, we now go to that next level.

So it doesn’t matter if the bosses is on the job or they’re not, the, the team holds because there’s a sa- standard that’s been set.

Angela
It’s all such valid sentences. So Justin, how can a small- 

Justin
I should write a book.

Angela: I, you should Yeah, well there you go Surprise, surprise. Maybe there is one. Ta-da. It’s called Service Rebellion.

So how can a small trade business compete against these bigger companies without trying to be the cheapest?

Justin
Well, I don’t think, I don’t think you need to, right? If you, if you really think about it, um, big businesses have got scale, um, which, which is fine, and I think this is where a lot of business owners, um, a small business owner trying to compete against that.

But a small business has got relationship, right? And that’s where the big ones don’t have that. So you’ve gotta look at what is, what are the differences that, of that I’ve got o- over, um, big business For me, and I’ve been in, in business now for, as I said, 31 years, I reckon small business has got over big business in a heartbeat.

Um, if I wanna go and change the direction of my ship, I can go, “Oh, I’m gonna change the direction of my ship.” If you’ve got a big business, you can’t go and do that. Um, you’ve gotta get permission from the board. You gotta go and do all the other stuff that goes with it. Bugger that for a joke. So you’ve got that whole personal, um, approach to it.

Y- y- you gotta get to know your customers. They’re, they’re not a number. Um, as I said before, they’re not a transaction. Um, and that means we’ve gotta be personal with them. We’ve gotta make sure that we, we, we’re more than just one sale i- with people. Um, and look, what I’ve always done with my team is, and I did this early on with attitude, but I don’t care, and this might come across wrong, but bear with me.

I don’t care if you, if you work for me and you don’t get the sale. I, I really don’t care. I do care if you don’t leave a memory because what I want is, and c- ’cause the way I look at it, um, everyone is now comparing. So you as a trade person watch or listening to this, your competitors are not another trade.

Your competitors are Woolworths, are p- Australia Post, are Amazon. It’s wherever someone just had their latest great experience, that’s what they’re measuring their experience with you. So stop comparing yourself against either large businesses or even your own competitors. So what we’ve gotta start to do is go, “Okay, well, all I’ve gotta do is make sure,” as I said before, “I don’t suck as everyone, as much as everyone else.”

But I think a lot of this, and I, I would hope there’s people listening to this nodding their heads, especially business owners, just make sure your team start nodding their heads at the same time, ’cause they’re the ones a lot of the time, unfortunately, that sort of let us down. And sometimes it’s not their fault.

It’s because they’ve never actually have been trained in that correctly and properly. And you know, for me, I’ve loved to be inside businesses talking to their staff, and I know that’s not possible, hence why I wrote the book. So I know that this book will work. Um, I know for a fact it’s gonna work because it is gonna be a totally different way that you’ve looked at it, but it is gonna change behaviors, and behaviors then change culture.

Andy
So mate, absolutely love all of that. I’m gonna go back to that line where you said the line in concrete. And, and this is something that I’ve really been thinking about in the last three months, probably six months actually. But you know- I believe be, and I hate coming back to this before COVID, I asked the COVID, but I think there’s a real point here.

I, I feel like every business owner before COVID sort of had their line in concrete. Then COVID hit and the game changed. Everyone could work from home, the government’s turmoil, whatever, and then all of a sudden trade business owners, all business owners, but let’s just talk trade business owners, after that COVID period, we didn’t know if we were coming or going and what to do, and our line that used to be in concrete was now in sand.

And over the next three years we’ve had good tradies, shit tradies, and all of a sudden staff have been dictating to us because that’s what they’ve been told they’re allowed to do, and it’s really changed the game. Now, I’m seeing that starting to flip a little bit now, and the people that we’re working with at Lifestyle Tradie say, “No, no, no, this is in concrete. This is a minimum standard. This is what’s expected.” But what I’m explaining there, Justin, have you noticed that in the trade arena? Have you noticed that in every business out there, or, or am I imagining it a little bit?

Justin
No, no, 100%. Um, and it’s the number one, um, piss off Justin thing that goes through me on a daily basis.

Um, it, it- we, we cannot, and it, it… Look, I’ve got to try and do this without offending anyone.

Andy
Go on, mate. You, you can’t- Can’t offend anybody … you can’t offend our viewers, mate. Fucking unload. Unload.

Justin
Right? It’s my business, my rules. And so as a business owner, if you’re listening to this, draw your bloody line.

Yeah. And if you’ve got people that don’t like it, tell them to get stuffed. Because as a business owner, it’s your house that’s on the line, not theirs, right? And if you’re gonna allow other people’s behavior to dictate your dream, well, more fool you, right? So stop letting that happen. But, and, and what we’ve gotta do, and this is why culture, uh, and it’s a great buzzword that people use these days, but culture is the sum part of all the behavior, if you think about it.

And you’ll find that most businesses don’t have a culture whatsoever. It’s whatever happens on the day. So if that’s happening in your business, go and change it, which means it needs deliberate action. And so I see this, um, a, a little bit after COVID, more so with, uh, my wife’s day spa. And she has a great team, but the, you know, there’s a few, a few little eggs there that, you know, had this sense of self-worth because they were getting paid a fortune to do nothing.

Um, you know, and I think that was part of the problem, too. And good on the government for giving people money, but it actually created a drama, um, where people had this, um, self-worth thing that was not correct. But hey, never let get, uh, facts get in the way of a good- … whatever. But, um, and so I think that happened.

And what, what was happened is we as business owners were handed the shit sandwich back then, and then after that we were left with that sandwich, and we had to now feed that to, to our employees and go, “Oh, it tastes like chocolate.” So it sort of didn’t, uh, ha- have a really good effect. And so what has to happen now, and especially if you’re in startup or you’re a newbie in, like in about last year or so in, in the business listening to this, you’ve gotta be very, very certain and deliberate on here’s the business that I want my customers to experience.

That’s your number one thing, not what you want your staff to experience. Your staff fit into that whole, um, round hole. So there’s that old saying, “You can’t fit a square peg in a round hole.” You can if you bloody force it, right? So this sometimes we’re gonna have to force this to happen because this is the experience I want my clients to have.

‘Cause when they have that experience, ’cause if they’re getting a crap one, they can get that anywhere cheaper, but anyway. So we’ve gotta give them something to come back, there’s something to pay for, and some reason for our staff to actually do a really good job as opposed to us just saying, “Would you mind doing a really good job?”

Now, the other thing for me, I’m a bit old school, but if I’ve gotta tell my staff members how to do their job- You shouldn’t be working for me ’cause that’s the reason you work for me, so you could do your job. So I think there’s been after COVID especially a little bit too much hand-holding going on ’cause what if we lose them?

What if they stay? Um, so you sort of gotta figure out, um, what you want as your business, and I’ll go back to it again and just hopefully people remember it. It’s your business, your rules. So make sure you got rules.

Andy
And, and I will just say that with changing times, there’s a lot of people we work with that are those people that have been the problems.

They’re just rotating them out now and bringing better ones in and setting that line in concrete, and you either want it or you don’t and you’re out, you know. And they’re doing that quite successfully. So that’s certainly something I’ve talked to our members and everyone about. Everyone gets it. I know you see it as well.

So yeah, it’s, it’s interesting, um, the last few years and, and how the standard dropped, and now it’s like, come on, guys, we need to change this.

Angela
I think people started, uh, they just tolerated it, didn’t they? They just accepted those standards. But I agree, it’s, it, it’s switched. So Justin, one of the concepts you actually teach in your book is called the buffer.

What actually is the buffer, and why do so many businesses unknowingly destroy it?

Justin
Do you know what? I could have made this entire book about the buffer. Um, and this is what I… I don’t know if I just see things differently to other people, or I just have a warped sense of view. I’m not, I dunno. I dunno what it is.

But if you think about it, when you interact with someone, a, a client or customer, what ha- what is happening in their heads without you realizing it, and most of the time without them realizing it, is they’ve got this buffer account. So when good stuff happens, they deposit, “Ooh, good stuff happened. That’s amazing.”

And then one day something’s gonna go wrong, and the shit hits the fan. But because there’s some credit in the buffer account, that withdrawal of a bad experience doesn’t ruin the relationship. But if you think about it, and, and this is why small business out of large businesses, this is why you will win, most large businesses don’t have a buffer, right?

So there’s no account that’s happening. It’s transactional. It’s fill out this form. And we’ve gotta be very careful on how we do certain things in business. And I, I may upset some people with this one, but have a look at what the customer journey is like for your clients. And most business owners have never actually been a customer in their own business.

And this is something that I, um, when we’re going through this process, I need to define a tiler. And I went to websites, which is what we do. Um, I went to five websites. Four of them didn’t have a phone number on it at all. Now, I know people are gonna go, “Oh, you know, I want people to do my process.”

Wackadoo for you, but how about your client would like to make it easier for you? ‘Cause all they wanna do is give you some money. Anyway, o- sorry, there’s two. I rung one, and it was the dumbest conversation I’ve ever had, right? And this is where there was no buffer, even, like, the experience took away any potential account.

And I rung the lady and I said, “Oh listen, here’s the job.” And it’s a big job. “Here’s the job that we’re looking at doing. Can I get someone to come and quote?” She goes, “Oh no, you need to go to our website and fill out the form I went, “Okay.” I said, “Uh, when I fill out the form, can I ask just a simple question?

Is the person gonna ring me back that is reading the form, would that be you by any chance?” She said, “Yes.” I said, “Well, here’s an idea. Why don’t we just miss that whole process and let’s have the conversation now?” She said, “No, you gotta fill out the form.” That was enough for me to go, “See ya.” Yeah. Uh, ’cause all…

Like she, she made that into a transaction and into a process. Now I get there’s gonna be people gonna be writing to management to say, “Well, that’s the process that we want.” That’s fantastic if that’s what-

Angela
She made it hard though …

Justin
It very hard. I rang up the next guy, who the only other guy that had a phone number.

Rang him up, he goes, “Yeah, mate, I can come around this afternoon.” He came around, got the job that afternoon. I mean, that’s as simple as some people wanna do business with you. Now whilst it, it looks funky on your website and you’ve got all these contact us forms, reality is from my perspective, I reckon 60% of them have never gotten back to me after I filled out a form.

Um, so if that’s the case and you’re wondering, “Why is my business not growing?” Maybe you’ve made it a little bit harder than, than you need to. So this is where the buffer comes into it. So when you think of every in- interaction, every transaction, is this adding to their account or is this gonna withdraw from that account?

Makes it pretty simple.

Angela
Yeah. We teach about this customer journey and about understanding your, w- we call it your avatar, this actual client that you’re try- this A grade client that you’re trying to work with long term, and you really need to understand them, don’t you, to s- to understand what interactions do they have with your business throughout that process of awareness or, you know, decision making, and when they eventually get to you.

Like, there’s so many touch points in there, and you’ve got to make it so easy. And this, our industry with trade, regardless of AI coming that can make things more efficient, we are still a human industry. That will never go away. So that, the, yeah, the core of this business will, all still has to come back to people.

Andy
Justin, we’re about to wrap it up, mate. Um, and we’ve just got a little game that we play. It’s, it’s called Rapid Fire. We’re gonna ask you three questions. You’re gonna have around about 20 seconds to answer each one. Are you ready?

Justin
Go for it.

Angela
All right, first one. What’s one decision you made in business that changed everything?

Justin
Always be contactable.

Andy
100%.

Angela
I like the simplicity of that.

Andy
It is. It, it’s simple, it’s easy, it’s straight to the point.

Justin
I’m trying to get, I’m trying to get extra credit for another answer that’s gonna go longer. No, just stay contactable. Um, don’t, don’t hide behind, um, gatekeepers and stuff like that. I know your business might be big.

My businesses are, are very, very large, and I’ve got a lot of them. Uh, my phone number is still the one that’s on every single website, ’cause I wanna make sure that I’m reachable because I’m in this position because the average Joe Blow originally went out and bought my T-shirt, so I’m not gonna separate myself from them.

Andy
Love that. And what’s one small thing that makes a big difference in your day to day these days?

Justin
In my day-to-day?

Andy
Yes.

Justin
I just think keeping it simple. I’m a simple man, and I don’t have a great deal of, um … We’ve got systems, but I don’t … I run my business through my personality, and, and my personality is don’t confuse myself. And so I think if I keep everything simple-

Andy
Yeah …

Justin
um, and then the team can do whatever the team wanna do. But yeah, just make sure that you play to your strengths.

Andy
Love it.

Angela
Ooh, love that. So last question is what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?

Justin
Uh, this was from my business mentor, um, who was the CEO of Phillips.

He still is my mentor to this day. ‘Cause I was dealing in a corporate world in the end with attitude, and he said, “Justin, never change who you are because the way that you do business is the way that people would love to do business with you.” And I, like, uh, I’m still shocked that I… 80% of my speaking gigs are in front of corporate.

I am the least corporate person you’ll ever come across, but they get so much out of my content. Um, so as a tradie, stay who you are. Like, I, I’m employing you because I need a good bloke or good lady to come to my house. The, the good part is what I’m wanting for. Your qualifications, I’m hoping you got them.

That’s why you got the job.

Andy
Yeah, that is awesome, mate. Thanks for playing our game, mate. The conversation we’ve had today has been mind-blowing. There’s been so many lessons and, and maybe a lot of things for businesses to do and trade businesses out there to get stuck in and, and, um, do right now. And I think the big takeaway here is with COVID and AI and all the other big things around, great service is the number one thing, building communication, being liked, and making sure you make that person feel special.

And when you do that, and when your team does that, that customer’s always gonna come back to back.

Angela
Absolutely. Justin, just wanna say thanks for being here. This book is awesome, The Service Rebellion Wolfpack Standard. Crew, go out and buy one. This is a really important conversation for trade business owners, and thanks for joining us today, Justin. This has been fabulous.

Andy
Yeah, thanks buddy. You’re absolute legend. We’ve had you with Lifestyle Tradie a few years back. Everyone’s always loved you. You’re doing such a great thing out there. And if you wanna learn more about customer service, get out there, The Wolfpack Standard, buy it now, and guys, I guarantee you’re gonna absolutely love it.

Thanks, Justin. It’s been great having you on the show today.

Justin
Thank you so much.

Angela
And to everyone listening, take a good look at where your service might be drifting. Not just the big stuff, but the small behaviors your customers actually notice every day. And maybe ask yourself, is the customer receiving a consistent experience from beginning to end, and which poor behaviors have you allowed to become normal?

Andy
All right, legends. That’s a wrap from us today. We will catch you next time.

Angela:
See you then.

Andy
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